[Gaxiciverfere]

Dear Chintana Ji / All

Sorry I had to hide out for some time (work hectic!) anyhow manage to find some time and J happy to see your response and followed by some other additions to this thread! Before we continue with this I would like to just make some points clearer for the sake of other audience to this thread. Because perception dependents on the perceiver, somebody might think we are in a debate of controversies and even might think have quarrelling about chauvinisms or performing a gender wrestling!

1. We have a clear vision of what we are talking about and we have great reverence and respect for each and every one in this forum.
2. The topic is primarily about divisions amongst Brahmin community, lineage and the purpose or concept of ‘Gothram’

Chintana Ji: With all humbleness, honestly I am not a scholar! I would say we all are discussing to understand. Yes, anyone is an idiot if not developed the urge for knowing by querying ‘vicharam’. It is not me saying this word ‘idiot’ but all the learned scholars and I don’t find a stronger/sharper word than this to express politely J Query/Question the urge for ‘Why?’ - Alone made us today to evolve to the state of human beings both physically and mentally. So I really appreciate your point mentioned that we should open up and question what is said in our Shastras or for that matter wherever/whoever.

I felt we are slightly deviating away from our context hence the above 2 points to rememberJ. Anyhow what you are talking about is a social issue; different issue; I honestly listen to your concerns but Shastra cannot do any thing with ragging, ill- treatment, disrespect etc., It will say what dharma is; it is up to the individual to follow it. As parents, it is their responsibility to make a human as god-human and further it is the individuals to be in that state. (For our understanding I am quoting this from what a great scholar Swami Chinmayananda Ji said/classifies. “Animal-human, human-human, god-human).

No need to go up to the level of saying “that nobody feels like thinking about God or attaining God when treated badly” – thinking simply - for a child playing food ball the play is more than god and worship, for a starving person food is more than all. So ‘bad treatment’ here is just another state.

I would say your concerns should be put in this way ‘Stronger vs. Meeker’ [S vs. V]. We can find bad treatment in all levels in a society amongst these [S vs. V]; it is not tagged to ‘Brahmin-women’ or ‘Women’ alone.

How many land-lords treat badly/abuse (both physically and emotionally) their workers [male/female]?
In how many houses MIL treat badly the DIL and in how many houses DIL treat badly the MIL?
Can we then say all MIL are egoistic or it is only because of the MIL the entire wisdom of all the DILs are perished?
Or DIL are egoistic?
How many fathers treat their children badly (I mean it, as I have heard /seen things like parents killing/ humiliating and child abuse of their own children) so can we say Parents are egoistic or totally bad? No! It is happening everywhere in all levels in a society irrespective of the sex (Male or Female). But I would surely accept Females are the most affected and vulnerable. This is a different issue; we can discuss on this separately.

I agree with your point ‘women's lives are tied strictly around men's lives’ this is because of the assumed supremacy of Male (Note, there are many cases of supremacy of Female too exist haha) overcoming from this bond needs both Women and Men to understand each other. It is not that because of Shastras or because of what Manu said all Men or like that! Philosophically freewill is what guiding us, if a stronger person who does not have any code or ethics can be destructive with his own freewill (animal-human), if the same stronger person guided by ethics can raise to the level of Sri Sarada Devi, Sri Ramana Maharishi (god-human). Even if we take up this concern related with society, I would say the situation is changing; the present is not like what/how our Mother and Gran-Mother were. Great Men like Mohanroy, Mahakavi Bharathi came to revolutionize. Men are realizing they are equally meeker and Women are realizing they are equally stronger!!! J

Manu says:
“yathra naryastu poojyanthe thatra ramanthe devathaha:” [where women are worshiped there revels all the devethas]
In other place Manu says:
“Husband and wife are two owners of a single/same house”
How a person saying thus could contradict to his own statements! By saying or comparing women to Sudra and would emphasize on keeping her under control? I am not sure which part of Manu says this? I think that needs analysis here. You know what the problem is? We are reading our heritage through a foreigner! What foreigner says about our tradition and Shastras. Maxmuller and others are Christian missionary guys they had translated our scriptures with many ulterior motives! And we are reading it. But in fact the confusion started way back even before Britishers came to India that aided them to further fuel the confusion fire!!! Anyhow that is not the concern there. Coming to the point, our Shastra is deep in its meaning, its richness is its manifold meaning, and it is situation based. One should learn Shastra from an eligible guru then only can get the full ‘ras’ essence of the teaching else only a partial vision alone is gained. Each and ever vocabulary of Sanskrit has its own meaning, special meaning, situational meaning etc. Translating a Sanskrit text in other language might loose or twist its meaning. Anyhow I would be happy to research more on and get back to you on what you have mentioned here ‘equated women with Shudras’.

Just to add further to clarify some assumption made in previous thread: what I had mentioned and quoted from our Vedas and Shastras were not just a mimic of parrot like or papacy. Those were digested and assimilated thoughts. The purpose of quoting from Shastras is to prompt the perceiver to take it further and do research on that. We should not just stop after finishing reading, if so it would be like a gossip club, there won’t be any further cognitive progress unless we further analyze.

I will continue sharing my thoughts later.

RV