[Ijkavylo]

Why are Spaniards ashamed that 30 % of them are descended from Judeans, Arabs Moors, Phonecians and Carthaginians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/wo....18411385.html

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pablo_Cuevas.jpg Judean

[Jon Woodgate]

lol this stupid study again...

[dfuzioniag]

Look, some Spaniards undoubtedly have some Dna from those people, the question is how much?

[Oppofeescom]

Look, some Spaniards undoubtedly have some Dna from those people, the question is how much?

How much ? Very little. What the study did is lump everything that was not R1b and consider it as Jewish/Arab.
There was a similar study that said 1 of 2 Italians are of jewish origin.
And if we proceeded with the same methodology to France, we would get similar results to what Spain has.

[attlawqa]

lol this stupid study again...

It is important to note that 'neutral' is a previously banned homosexual member - Now using false IP to avoid getting banned again.

[Phighicle]

How much ? Very little. What the study did is lump everything that was not R1b and consider it as Jewish/Arab.
There was a similar study that said 1 of 2 Italians are of jewish origin.
And if we proceeded with the same methodology to France, we would get similar results to what Spain has.

1 There was never any mass expulsion of Marranos like there was of Moriscos.

2 There would have been some intermarriage with the Moors/Arabs/Judeans during Islamic rule with natives, they would have converted to Christianity once they long before 1492 in areas outside of Andalucia, by which time people would have forgotten the were moriscos. For instance in Valencia which was re-conquered in 1238, but had a Muslim majority at the time, many would have converted and by 1492 would have been accepted as 'normal' spaniards.

[movlabz]

1 There was never any mass expulsion of Marranos like there was of Moriscos.

Yes there was. And it was quite massive. Sehpardics went to Turkey, America, Netherlands, North-Africa, etc.

2 There would have been some intermarriage with the Moors/Arabs/Judeans during Islamic rule with natives, they would have converted to Christianity once they long before 1492 in areas outside of Andalucia, by which time people would have forgotten the were moriscos. For instance in Valencia which was re-conquered in 1238, but had a Muslim majority at the time, many would have converted and by 1492 would have been accepted as 'normal' spaniards. How many times do we have to say that Muslims were ethnic iberians converted to Islam ? That ethnic moors or jews were a very small minority, compared to the population of Iberia.

[Meenepek]

Why are Spaniards ashamed that 30 % of them are descended from Judeans, Arabs Moors, Phonecians and Carthaginians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/wo....18411385.html

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pablo_Cuevas.jpg Judean

Why are some many people out there that would be so glad if spaniards (and some others) were whatever non-european thing?

It would make you a happier or better person?.

Yes I think you would be happier, the fucking race ladder comes to mind.

Anyway, some of us, the enlightened, have seen the light already...

[BEyng6hj]

To be honest the Spaniarsd who made it to he America's where VERY much moorish/berber and sephardic jewish/arab/mideast mixed. Because genetically so far its VERY consistent that we in the Americas have considerable admixture from these parties, and nobody in the americas claims moorish ancestry very few as sephardic and much less as middle eastern. So alot of these conversos made it ot the Americas. 3 out of 4 of my grandparents are 13-15% North-African, and the one that has no north-african is 14% mideast. And these are people who are from 45 - 62% Eurasian. IN other words people who are roughly about half spanish, if you magnify this into 100% that means some of my spanish ancestors where up to 30-35% North-African, and 20-30% mideast. And this is not comparing against north-europeans, i am using scores from Dna Tribes which compares against Spaniards (Iberian) and scores from Mcdonald.

[Vigeommighica]

To be honest the Spaniarsd who made it to he America's where VERY much moorish/berber and sephardic jewish/arab/mideast mixed. Because genetically so far its VERY consistent that we in the Americas have considerable admixture from these parties, and nobody in the americas claims moorish ancestry very few as sephardic and much less as middle eastern. So alot of these conversos made it ot the Americas. 3 out of 4 of my grandparents are 13-15% North-African, and the one that has no north-african is 14% mideast. And these are people who are from 45 - 62% Eurasian. IN other words people who are roughly about half spanish, if you magnify this into 100% that means some of my spanish ancestors where up to 30-35% North-African, and 20-30% mideast. And this is not comparing against north-europeans, i am using scores from Dna Tribes which compares against Spaniards (Iberian) and scores from Mcdonald.

Moriscos, Sephardics or Canarians would explain this. They migrated massively into the Americas. Because if you look at the same table from DNA Tribes, spaniards average 0% arabian and 0% north-african :

[amannddo]

hold your horses vettel.

1 the Judeans who were expelled were not Marranos, but the ones who refused to convert, many of the ones who converted stayed.

2 It is immiposible to say what percentage of Muslims were native and what was of Arab/Moorish origin, some of them were most certainly of Arab/North African origin and converted. It my be only 5 % of spaniards or it may be 20 % who knows, we may never know as their DNA was similar to neolthic Middle Easterners who went to spain.

[steevytraunse]

That is false neutral because I descend from Jewish Conversos (who were as Iberian as they were Jewish) that did convert and fled. We are still catholics.


Don't troll. Let it go. It suffices to say that Inquisicion and Limpieza de Sangre pretty much cleaned their Peninsula. Of course, there must be remnants, but living in Spain my self, I must admit they are a minority.

[pkopwqzsdcvbn]

not again

[fount_pirat]

hold your horses vettel.

1 the Judeans who were expelled were not Marranos, but the ones who refused to convert, many of the ones who converted stayed.

It doesn't matter because they were a small minority. And they were expelled. And Spain was not the only european country to have Jews, there were more jews in other european counries.

2 It is immiposible to say what percentage of Muslims were native and what was of Arab/Moorish origin, some of them were most certainly of Arab/North African origin and converted. It my be only 5 % of spaniards or it may be 20 % who knows Of course we know they were a minority, since their genetic impact was very small.

we may never know as their DNA was similar to neolthic Middle Easterners who went to spain. There are countries in Europe with much more neolithic ME than Spain, like Italy, Greece, The Balkans, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. why don't you call them arab also ?

The fact is that spaniards genetically cluster with French and North-Italians on genetics plots.

[enteltcheft]

This study is like Halley's comet, time to time appears.

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

It doesn't matter because they were a small minority. And they were expelled. And Spain was not the only european country to have Jews, there were more jews in other european counries.


Of course we know they were a minority, since their genetic impact was very small.


There are countries in Europe with much more neolithic ME than Spain, like Italy, Greece, The Balkans, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. why don't you call them arab also ?

The fact is that spaniards genetically cluster with French and North-Italians on genetics plots.

please ignore him it's the best thing you can do to these no life attention whore trolls

[gortusbig]

You misspelled denial.

[LindaSmithIV]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...366145/Marrano

A considerable minority of Jews saved themselves from expulsion by baptism, thus adding strength and numbers to the Marranos, but the mass of Spanish Jews refused conversion and went into exile. The physical separation of the Marranos from their spiritual sympathizers, however, did not make them more amenable to inquisitorial discipline. The Jewish religion remained deeply rooted in their hearts, and they continued to transmit their beliefs to the succeeding generations. Many Marranos did eventually choose emigration, however, principally to North Africa and to other western European countries. Marranism had disappeared in Spain by the 18th century owing to this emigration and to gradual assimilation within Spain. See also converso.

lets not forget the Phonecians and Carthagineans, what interests me more is why are you so averse to having any Judean/Maghrebi/arab blood? imagine Spain was ruled by Norwegian vikings for 700 years I'm sure you would not be ashamed of that, would you now?

[CaseyFronczekHomie]

To complete my family tree I've looked at records of proceedings of Limpieza de Sangre in military records (especially army officers records in the Archives of Segovia), archives of the Inquisition, and records of HidalguÃ*a, and the converted Jews were very few, most of them went to America, only in Mallorca there is a community of descendants of converted Jews, the Chuetas. The few Moriscos who remained in Spain are also recorded in an Excel document that is available online.

[avavavava]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...366145/Marrano

A considerable minority of Jews saved themselves from expulsion by baptism, thus adding strength and numbers to the Marranos, but the mass of Spanish Jews refused conversion and went into exile. The physical separation of the Marranos from their spiritual sympathizers, however, did not make them more amenable to inquisitorial discipline. The Jewish religion remained deeply rooted in their hearts, and they continued to transmit their beliefs to the succeeding generations. Many Marranos did eventually choose emigration, however, principally to North Africa and to other western European countries. Marranism had disappeared in Spain by the 18th century owing to this emigration and to gradual assimilation within Spain. See also converso.

lets not forget the Phonecians and Carthagineans, what interests me more is why are you so averse to having any Judean/Maghrebi/arab blood? imagine Spain was ruled by Norwegian vikings for 700 years I'm sure you would not be ashamed of that, would you now?

the conversos staid in spain after 1492 , but a few years afterwards , they were chased by the church and many marranos took refuge in the kingdoms of italy and north africa maghreb, as well as the netherlands. i don't think many jews ever staid in spain , especially that judean culture and identity was at its peaks in the 15th century.