[GutleNus]

Many half Horner half European mixes don't look like that kid; instead, they look North African.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that North Africans are half East African, and I'm not denying that you have lots of Eurasian ancestry. But autosomal studies, as well as your very own subclade of E3b (E-M81) show the African genetic contributions to North African populations.

[alenbarbaf]

'
Ancient Horner men with 'E1b1b' mixing with Southern European 'H' women are the only logical explanation for the Berber phenotype. Don't deny it, you are predominately African as well.

Stupid. E1b1b lineage came from an ancient Eurasian lineage which entered Africa and spread through Northeast Egypt and East-Africa , then to North Africa (a long with a very-well known J1 (M-267) lineage , found all over North Africa). The first presence of Humans in Northwest Africa is caracterized by an Ibero-maurisian culture (surely U6 MTDNA). Where do you see any Horners here ? E1b1a entered Africa , from south Eurasia , very much way before and colonized much of SS-Africa over A and B hg (Khoisan/Pygmies) , E1b1b is a descendant of E1 , descendants of E coming from DE via CT (migrations of Humans out of Africa).

[Quiniacab]

Horners are mixed.period. Tishkoff studied Mozabites (Saharans) and she argues that Mozabites are more than 60% of her "European" cluster , then I assume Kabylians and other north Algerians would reach the 90%.

You have no proof so why assume idiot? Kabyles are predominately African also, but maybe more mixed that Mozabites.

[chechokancho]

Many half Horner half European mixes don't look like that kid; instead, they look North African.

It would be sweet if someone posted a thread comparing Horner/European individuals with West African/European individuals.

[VowJoyday]

Listen troll, North Africans are the most mixed Africans with the possible exception of Cape Mixed people who are just a small population within South Africa, don't let the Game have to keep pulling your skirt up exposing you.

You call me troll? What's more troll than an Afro-Centrist?

[BoBoMasterDesign]

Stupid. E1b1b lineage came from an ancient Eurasian lineage which enter Africa and spread through Northeast Egypt and East-Africa , then to North Africa (a long with a very-well known J1 lineage , found all over North Africa). The presence of Humans in Northwest Africa is caracterized by an Ibero-maurisian culture (surely U6 MTDNA). Where do you see any Horners here ? E1b1a entered Africa , from Eurasia , way before and colonized much of Africa over A and B hg (Khoisan/Pygmies) , E1b1b is a descendant of E1 , descendants of E coming from DE via CT (migrations of Humans out of Africa).

There is no proof or consensus that E3b came from outside of Africa, the proof indicates that E3b recently expanded out from sub-Saharan Africa into the Middle East and North Africa with E-M81 being the youngest.

[ireleda]

Many half Horner half European mixes don't look like that kid; instead, they look North African

Comletely untrue. Horners are mixed , so when they mix with Eurasians , the level of Eurasian ancestry increases and they tend to look more North African/Middle-East than do pure Horners.

[Ijkavylo]

Stupid. E1b1b lineage came from an ancient Eurasian lineage which enter Africa and spread through Northeast Egypt and East-Africa , then to North Africa (a long with a very-well known J1 lineage , found all over North Africa). The presence of Humans in Northwest Africa is caracterized by an Ibero-maurisian culture (surely U6 MTDNA). Where do you see any Horners here ? E1b1a entered Africa , from Eurasia , way before and colonized much of Africa over A and B hg (Khoisan/Pygmies) , E1b1b is a descendant of E1 , descendants of E coming from DE via CT (migrations of Humans out of Africa).

Now you Euro-centrists are claiming the most quintessential African marker 'E' as being Eurasian, wow, what's next?

Any sources to your claims...

[Dvjkefdw]

It would be sweet if someone posted a thread comparing Horner/European individuals with West African/European individuals.

That wouldn't prove anything, people of true 50-50 mixes can have phenotypes that go either way.

[Zpxbawtz]

It would be sweet if someone posted a thread comparing Horner/European individuals with West African/European individuals.

There was a thread for that. Try searching it.

Comletely untrue. Horners are mixed , so when they mix with Eurasian , the level of Eurasian ancestry increases and they tend to look more North African/Middle-East than do pure Horners.

What is a pure Horner? I was talking about people who are mixed between Horner and European. I've seen these people, I think I know what they look like.

[art_fan_12]

Now you Euro-centrists are claiming the most quintessential African marker 'E' as being Eurasian, wow, what's next?
Any sources to your claims...

DE and its descendants are found in Africa and Asia.
DE comes from CT , which is the marker that represents the migration of Humans outside of Africa and actually CR gave birth to C haplogroup , F haplogroup ( all its descandants) and DE. ( whereas A and B hg staid in Africa). E1b1b re-entered Africa by Eurasian migrations (caracterized also by a J1 lineage and Eurasian MTDNA such as M1 and such others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yhaplotree.JPG

[NikitahDE]

That wouldn't prove anything, people of true 50-50 mixes can have phenotypes that go either way.

Perhaps in the USA where African-Americans have significant European ancestry and even then very few come out looking anything close to that kid or some other Horner/European people I've seen. They certainly don't look North African. But I haven't seen many to be honest. So a thread o nit would be super cool.

You remember Gelaye? He had an interesting look.

[bortycuz]

Perhaps in the USA where African-Americans have significant European ancestry and even then very few come out looking anything close to that kid or some other Horner/European people I've seen. They certainly don't look North African. But I haven't seen many to be honest. So a thread o nit would be super cool.

You remember Gelaye? He had an interesting look.

Yes indeed, he looked East Asian, which is why the Game said 50-50 mixes can have phenotypes that go either way. But, it can be stated that Horners do *NOT* resemble 50-50 mixes of "True Negroes" so called and Arabs, which is what the troll is saying.

[sasaderesada]

You're wrong, Qart Hadash. It doesn't matter where E* originated, E1b1a and E1b1b are believed to have originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.

[triarmarm]

Anyone with common sense could deduce its origin by simply analyzing this map

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E.png

[Cyncceply]

You're wrong, Qart Hadash. It doesn't matter where E* originated, E1b1a and E1b1b are believed to have originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.

If E originated is Eurasia like that troll stated why don't Bantus cluster with Eurasians in Tishkoff's study? By his logic Bantus expanded recently from Eurasia, leapfrogged into southern Nigeria/northern Cameroon and spread through central, eastern and southern africa, all of this while populating West Africa.

[gWhya5ct]

If E originated is Eurasia like that troll stated why don't Bantus cluster with Eurasians in Tishkoff's study? By his logic Bantus expanded recently from Eurasia, leapfrogged into southern Nigeria/northern Cameroon and spread through central, eastern and southern africa, all of this while populating West Africa.

Hey, those aren't my words. It doesn't make any sense to me either. I don't think he's a troll, I think we should just leave him be.

But you should understand that even if E originated outside of Africa, it could still have been spread by males who are genetically no different to African males. That's the way haplogroups work.

[avappyboalt]

If E originated is Eurasia like that troll stated why don't Bantus cluster with Eurasians in Tishkoff's study? By his logic Bantus expanded recently from Eurasia, leapfrogged into southern Nigeria/northern Cameroon and spread through central, eastern and southern africa, all of this while populating West Africa.

Clusters and haplogroups are not the same things. Horners like Ethioboy cluster with Eurasians , and atleast Mozabites are more of 60% of "European" cluster according by your Godess Tishkoff. E1b1a is more ancient in Africa , DE spread in the both areas to Africa and Asia , surely the first E migration into the whole SS-Africa was E1b1a , over A and B hg indigenous. The fact is that E3b-carriers cluster mostly with Eurasians (Balkans ,North Africa, Middle-East , Horn).
---------- Post added 2010-05-23 at 22:05 ----------

Hey, those aren't my words. It doesn't make any sense to me either. I don't think he's a troll, I think we should just leave him be.
But you should understand that even if E originated outside of Africa, it could still have been spread by males who are genetically no different to African males. That's the way haplogroups work.

Bantu's expansion was made into West , South and Cental Africa , many ethnicites in Africa still carry A and B haplogroups , while others (mostly Bantus) carry E1b1a , DE was detected as far as Tibet , and actually , D is common among ethnicities such as Japanese (including Ainus). E1b1b is found at very low frequencies in SS-A. This haplogroups is found in Horn , North Africa , Middle-East and Europe. Finally , I'd add you that E comes from DE which comes from CT and this CT haplogroup is commonly known as the ancestor of all haplogroups found outside Africa , including DE , and to name the two others : F and C.

---------- Post added 2010-05-23 at 22:22 ----------

You're wrong, Qart Hadash. It doesn't matter where E* originated, E1b1a and E1b1b are believed to have originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.

An anthropologist named Mathida , argued that E3b and J1 developped in an area from Northeast Egypt/Nubia to Levant , and then spread into North Africa (Neolothic migrations) , Europe (into Balkans) , Arabia (North-to-South migrations) and East-Africa (South migrations). Just look at where J1 appears to be high (Yemen) , it actually shows how much E3b/J1 spread themselves and how they spread archaic Afro-Asiatic languages.

[theatadug]

Bantu's expansion was made into West , South and Cental Africa , many ethnicites in Africa still carry A and B haplogroups , while others (mostly Bantus) carry E1b1a , DE was detected as far as Tibet , and actually , D is common among ethnicities such as Japanese (including Ainus).

Right. E1b1b is found at very low frequencies in SS-A. This haplogroups is found in Horn , North Africa , Middle-East and Europe. Contradictory. Finally , I'd add you that E comes from DE which comes from CT and this CT haplogroup is commonly known as the ancestor of all haplogroups found outside Africa , including DE , and to name the two others : F and C. Okay.


---------- Post added 2010-05-23 at 22:22 ----------
An anthropologist named Mathida , argued that E3b and J1 developped in an area from Northeast Egypt/Nubia to Levant , and then spread into North Africa (Neolothic migrations) , Europe (into Balkans) , Arabia (North-to-South migrations) and East-Africa (South migrations). Just look at where J1 appears to be high (Yemen) , it actually shows how much E3b/J1 spread themselves and how they spread archaic Afro-Asiatic languages. "An anthropologist named Mathilda"? Who is this person?

E-M78 could have originated in Upper Egypt/Nubia, that is correct. E-M35, however (E1b1b*), is the most diverse in East Africa and is the haplogroup which is associated with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages. Some subclades of this haplogroup are found in Eastern Africa south of the Horn of Africa, in Afro-Asiatic speaking populations without a trace of J.

[SeelaypeKet]

E-M78 could have originated in Upper Egypt/Nubia, that is correct. E-M35, however (E1b1b*), is the most diverse in East Africa and is the haplogroup which is associated with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages. Some subclades of this haplogroup are found in Eastern Africa south of the Horn of Africa, in Afro-Asiatic speaking populations without a trace of J.

Well actually Northeast Africa includes Egypt and Nubia. Most of Afro-Asiatic speaking populations do carry a J1 lineage like North Horners do. Egyptians also do. Northwest Africans do. Even isolated Guanches showed 16% of J1. Yemenis are the ones who carry its at the highest rate. Even recently , they found , surprisingly , R1b at high level among Chadic-speakers.About this E-M35 , it was only found among two Amhras and 1 Yemeni.

Contradictory.

It depends of each views , that region is surrended by Sahara.