[RichardFG435]

The horseshoe arch (arco de herradura), very used in Islamic art, also in Magreb, is roman, not arab or berber.

[intendepods]

The horseshoe arch (arco de herradura), very used in Islamic art, also in Magreb, is roman, not arab or berber.

yeah but it isn't very used by Castillians


anyway moorish art looks nothing like "christian" art
different ethnic groups have different tastes and crate different arts



in my opinion the average spaniard wouldn't find it beautiful(many colors and forms) it would be too "cantoso" for them

[enasseneiff]

yeah but it isn't very used by Castillians


anyway moorish art looks nothing like "christian" art

The horseshoe arch is very common in visigothic art, most churches use it.

And the andalusi art is heavily influenced by byzantine and roman-visigothic art, for the construction of Córdoba Mosque were used roman and visigoth columns and mosaics were made by byzantine artists...

[Anypeny]

The official version on history books here is mostly north african berbers with an arab rulling elite, possibly syrian. But i've also heard of slavic and black troops/slaves.

The slavic were the "saqaliba", right?

[Nidsstese]

The horseshoe arch is very common in visigothic art, most churches use it.

And the andalusi art is heavily influenced by byzantine and roman-visigothic art, for the construction of Córdoba Mosque were used roman and visigoth columns and mosaics were made by byzantine artists...

Byzantines were mostly Near Easterns right???
well If you look at any christian monument in Spain and most islamic monuments in Spain you'll notice that they were made by very different people they look like day and night Romans,Visigoths,Greeks,Byzantines and Mesopotamians gave alot of influences to most of the known world so it's not surprising if they use and if they took some old visigoth buildings and converted them into moorish places and mosques the same the Catholics kings did to moorish monuments that means nothing also moorish architecture is more similar to Maghrebian architecture than Near Eastern architecture...anyway moorish is too "barroco" for the Spanish mentality to crate it,moors are more barrocos and that type of art suits them best just look at the Spanish woman and the Maghrebi woman ,maghrebi clothes are way more outrageous than the Spanish clothes



very different tastes Spaniards would find Maghrebi clothes "recargados" and Maghrebis would find Spanish clothes very borring

[oneliRafmeene]

'Muslim' is not a race, anyway

[Domovoy]

anyway aren't there like some moorish cementeries???
If they ever analyze their remains we could know what most moors in Spain were!

[thehhhyips]

Byzantines were mostly Near Easterns right???
well If you look at any christian monument in Spain and most islamic monuments in Spain you'll notice that they were made by very different people they look like day and night Romans,Visigoths,Greeks,Byzantines and Mesopotamians gave alot of influences to most of the known world so it's not surprising if they use and if they took some old visigoth buildings and converted them into moorish places and mosques the same the Catholics kings did to moorish monuments that means nothing also moorish architecture is more similar to Maghrebian architecture than Near Eastern architecture...anyway moorish is too "barroco" for the Spanish mentality to crate it,moors are more barrocos and that type of art suits them best just look at the Spanish woman and the Maghrebi woman

Yes, the byzantines were in Near East and even the Middle East, but his art was essentially Greco-Roman. When the Arabs conquered the Syrian territories of the Byzantine Empire, copied from byzantines the economic-social administration, military politics, art and even the dress of the ruler classes, and so brought him to Spain. And Magreb was part of the Roman Empire too, one of the most romanized zones...Septimius Severus, Caracalla, St. Augustine and more were from Magreb.

Moors and Christians were largely the same origin, but with a different religion and culture, they were not radically different peoples.

[giftplas]

Most moors were natives that converted to Islam to avoid paying the taxes that the islamic rulers required the christians to pay. Many islamic rulers were in fact visigoths converted to islam that changed their names to arabic.

For example: Abû l-Walîd Hishâm ibn al-Hakam was a redhead. His mother was a visigothic Spaniard.
There are also some califas that in fact were pure visigothic converted to islam, and changed their name and surname to arabic.

We don´t have to invent theories, we just have to see drawings of that era. This one was painted in the Alhambra. It represents muslims kings of Granada:



The muslims entered Spain as a result of a betrayal among visigothic rulers.

[LeaderBiz]

anyway aren't there like some moorish cementeries???
If they ever analyze their remains we could know what most moors in Spain were!

In my city -Zaragoza- there were berbers, confirmed by archaeology and toponyms. There is a neighbourhood outside the city wich was inhabited since X century. Its name, Monzalbarba (Manzil Barbar), explains its ethnical origin.

[iodigmaFemZem]

First, and prior to the muslim arrival, were those form Mauretania Tingitana (mauri=moor) who invaded Spain during the Roman Empire times.

By 711 they "invaded" Spain again, but now as muslims (they were called by a visigothic ruler to fight against the king, Rodrigo). They realized the country was driven by the anarchy and decided to send more troops to establish a permanent control. Many hispanorromans accepted the new rulers as a better option than the goths, some of them embracing the new faith and others keeping their beliefs.

A ruling class came from the Near East -mainly Syria- and built up the "Caliphate of Cordoba" when the Ummayyad were subsituted by the Abbasidas in the muslim world (the spanish caliphas were Ummayyad)

But there were more invasions from north Africa; those of Almoravides, Almohades and Benimerines. They occuped muslim Spain driven by a fanatic interpretation of Islam wich was rejected by both muslim and christian spaniards.

Finaly, the term moor was used to designate any muslim without taking into account their origin or ethnicity. In Spain, the majority of muslims were of indigenous stock (more or less mixed with the above quoted, who were a minority when compared to hispanorromans)

Question (and for anyone else who can shed some light):

1. The ones who came during the Roman era, were they the ones who allied with Hannibal (Numidians)? Mauretania always confuses me (historicaly vs modern Mauretania and the people called as such).

2. During the period after the fall of the Roman Empire, what was the ethnic makeupe of Spain? Were they Romanized CeltIberian, Celts and Iberian proper and some of the Germanic tribes? Were those the HispanoRomans?

So who were the invaders greatest foes, Visigoths, Vandals, Suebi, etc.?

[BalaGire]

The slavic were the "saqaliba", right?

Yes, Sir...

And that proves Slavic peoples invaded Spain in 711.

---------- Post added 2011-11-16 at 19:22 ----------

In my city -Zaragoza- there were berbers, confirmed by archaeology and toponyms. There is a neighbourhood outside the city wich was inhabited since X century. Its name, Monzalbarba (Manzil Barbar), explains its ethnical origin.

Banu Qassem explains a lot about Conte Casio's Arabic ancestry.

---------- Post added 2011-11-16 at 19:23 ----------

anyway the important moors were berber because moorish architecture resembles Maghreb's architecture and that type of architecture looks nothing like pre-al-andalus iberian architecture because that type of art can't come from the mind of a western European

"Moorish" architecture resembles Maghreb's?

My ass!!!



And flamenco music is from Arabia...

And there were Arabic horses...

And Arabs went to Spain to invent irrigation...

And many more fairy tales.

[wgX44EEn]

Banu Qassem explains a lot about Conte Casio's Arabic ancestry. Abenjaldún, it means berber village. It's undeniable they were here. But if you want more proofs, I'll give you them later, I have to go.

[Seiblybiozy]

My mother through eurogenes has a strong North African component as well as a very strong Northern/Central European component. She's an Iberian/Berber/Suevian warrior queen

[freediscountplanrrxip]

(llueve desde hace 3 semanas y estoy hasta los huevos, cago'n dios)

lol, same thing here. But today we had no rain for the first time since a long time. It felt strange...

[JTS_tv]

My mother through eurogenes has a strong North African component as well as a very strong Northern/Central European component. She's an Iberian/Berber/Suevian warrior queen

Maybe that northafrican component is prehistoric (neolithic). and not really muslim as many studies confirm.

[SergeyLisin]

lol, same thing here. But today we had no rain for the first time since a long time. It felt strange...

Even the dry Madrid is fucking rainy during this month

[opergolon]

Yep It's raining everywhere even in the Extremadurian desert lol (it's actually getting greeny). Well neolithic or not there's always been a second component around. Care to explain how I am 25% MENA? Inquisition changed the demographics of Spain? So many things to which I dont know the answers to...

[nilliraq]

Yep It's raining everywhere even in the Extremadurian desert lol (it's actually getting greeny). Well neolithic or not there's always been a second component around. Care to explain how I am 25% MENA? Inquisition changed the demographics of Spain? So many things to which I dont know the answers to...

You are even giving me more reason to me. 25% of MENA is absolutely impossible to be from the muslim of 500 years ago, because that would mean that one of your grandfather is pure MENA. Are you sure your mother is pure Spaniard?.

[hubua990]

Question (and for anyone else who can shed some light):

1. The ones who came during the Roman era, were they the ones who allied with Hannibal (Numidians)? Mauretania always confuses me (historicaly vs modern Mauretania and the people called as such).

2. During the period after the fall of the Roman Empire, what was the ethnic makeupe of Spain? Were they Romanized CeltIberian, Celts and Iberian proper and some of the Germanic tribes? Were those the HispanoRomans?

So who were the invaders greatest foes, Visigoths, Vandals, Suebi, etc.?

1-I forgot the punic invasion!! Added to the list, thanks. But no, I was talking about these moors:

Efectivamente, durante el reinado de Marco Aurelio en el siglo II de nuestra era (en la década de los setenta) hubo un par de invasiones de pueblos "mauri" (nombre dado a los habitantes de Tingitania y término del que procede el actual "moro").

Se trataba de un conjunto de pueblos de raÃ*z bereber, que habrÃ*an aprovechado la debilidad de Roma -y la proximidad de una zona tan rica como el valle del Guadalquivir- para emprender acciones de rapiña.

Los mauri se establecÃ*an en este momento en las montañas del Rif, cercanas al Estrecho de Gibraltar, lo que les permitió fácilmente invadir la provincia romana de la Bética en el sur de la PenÃ*nsula.

Los mauri fueron altamente apreciados por los romanos como soldados, especialmente como caballerÃ*a ligera. La influencia romana estaba confinada sobre todo a la costa, y Roma gobernó el interior a través de caudillos mauri locales. La escasa y tardÃ*a romanización y su caracter nómada, unido a los problemas del imperio, hicieron posible estas incursiones.

Es cierto que Roma no se encontraba en su mejor momento en la provincia tingitana, sin embargo, no hay documentación concreta que permita hablar de que en la época se produjera una sublevación. Por otra parte, no parece verosÃ*mil que los autores de los ataques contra la Bética fueran poblaciones del interior, de unas tierras alejadas del
mar. Por el contrario, parece que los atacantes de la Bética debieron ser poblaciones de la zona costera, asÃ* pues, parece más lógico que los ataques contra Hispania se atribuyan a las poblaciones rifeñas. Los estudios que se han hecho de las circunstancias indican que este ataque de los moros se efectuó entre el 169 y el 172, e incluso podrÃ*a precisarse más en torno al año 171. http://ejercito-romano.losforos.es/l...-d-c-t105.html

2-All the prerroman latinized hispani + a few families of imperial origin (mainly italic) + some immigrants from other provinces. The germanic peoples weren't hispanorromani, there was in fact a kind of segregation between the rulers and the "native" stock. Those were:

Alani (of iranic origin), who weren't a grat number, settled in the central fringe of Spain (from the Atlantic to the Mediterreanean)

Vandali asdingi in Callaecia and Asturica, Vandali silingi in Baetica (more or less Andalusia)

Suevi in northwestern Spain

Visigothi, the more important, who drove alani and vandali out (to north Africa) and absorbed the suevi. The total amount of the visigothi was around 200.000 individuals (they came with their clients form other tribes and provinces, including gallo-romans)