[Savviioor]

Alright lads, I've been floating around these boards for close to half a decade now, and if there's one thing I'm sick of it's defending or explaining Jews and Judaism to Nazis, conspirocy theorists and ZOG fetishists. I'm going to attempt to make the most complete question and answer thread on this stuff that I can. Please feel free to repost this anywhere you like, because if nothing else maybe it's save someone else the headache of dealing with ignorance and stupidity. In fact, I really, really hope this gets reposted in all the right places, but that's up to you lot. This forum is my home for the time being so I'm starting it here.

-Dean

So what is a Jew anyway A person can be considered a Jew several ways. According to Rabbinic law as codified in the Talmud anyone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, no matter the paternal lineage. A Jew can also be someone with no Jewish ethnic heritage who converts to Judaism and/or self identifies as a Jew by following the laws and customs. A person can also be ethnically descended from Jews yet follow not a whit of Judaism, such as being a practising Christian or Muslim, or more commonly, an Atheist.

So are Jews a religion or a race/ethnic group Simple answer is both. The people descended from the group following Judaism in its early days (Hebrews) can be considered their own ethnic group. But the people who follow Judaism without descending from ethnic Jews are still Jews because they practice Judaism.

Lets get down to business, do Jews control the world? No, and I'm quite pissed about it. Lets get down to brass tacks. If there is some conspiracy to control the worlds wealth/media/finances it's not "The Jews" but a cabal of wealthy people who presumably have been at this a long time. I feel pretty well qualified to talk about this. I hold both an EU passport and a US one. I've worked and travelled in many countries and I've met Jews from all over. I've met everyone from electricians and plumbers to doctors and bankers, what I haven't met is someone who appears to have some sort of grasp over world affairs and politics. If someone's controlling everything, they're not letting me in on it.

Are you a Zionist agent sent here to mislead us? No, and again it's nothing but a piss-off. My family is English. We've been English for several hundred years now and my fathers have fought in every war up until the Blair/Bush games. I hold no allegiance to Israel, the modern state and am not compelled, simply by virtue of being Jewish to defend to political decisions its government makes. Being Jewish also doesn't give me any more insight into what's going on there than a fourth generation German descent American does in Berlin's local elections.

So what are your thoughts on Israel? The Hebrew scriptures and prayers are filled with poems and requiems for the lost Kingdom of David and Solomon. Israel of old, as in the historical sense, is very dear to practising Jews. I can't say I think much of what modern Israel has become though. I visit Israel in the same way a Christian tourist does. To see with my own eyes the holy sites I've read about in the old texts. I certainly don't want to be mired in the current political and cultural landscape.

Abe Foxman and the ADL? Let me make one thing clear: if I'd never started visiting race/anthropology boards I would never have heard of Foxman or the ADL. They don't represent me any more than Tom Metzger (Founder of White Aryan Resistance) speaks for Bob over in accounting. You've only heard of them for the same reason you've heard of loads of other meaningless groups: They're loud. They like to be loud and they know that being loud will get them media attention. They're not some spokesperson for international Jewry and you're not somehow keeping tabs on international Jewry by watching them closely. All you're doing is being a dumbass, but if you think International Jewry even exists in some homogeneous form, I'm more than happy for you to keep an eye on them. At least it'll keep you busy.

But what about the World Jewish Congress! Again, without these boards and SF I'd never have heard of them. I don't know who they are or what they do or who exactly they represent or claim to represent. I certainly don't get any leaflets from them and they don't ask for my opinions. All it represents to me is that people like starting groups with grandiose names. On that note, myself and a few mates got together recently to form the World Sausage Roll Congress. Our first order of business was to declare that sausage rolls are delicious. Our second decision was that just about anything wrapped in puff pastry is delicious. I ask you kindly, spread the word.

So what does Theodore Hertzl mean to you? Fuck all. I see his point in his historical context, and I've already stated my views on modern Zionism.

Is the main enemy of the Jews the White European Male? Considering every Ashkenazi bloke I've ever met considered himself a white European male? No. There is no "The Jews" because the Jews have pretty much managed to divide themselves across every possible faction, from religious to ethnic to cultural.

So then why are The Jews promoting race mixing in Europe? "The Jews"? Which Jews and What Jews? Jews are not some sort of united front, each with a transmitter implanted at birth receiving marching orders from Abe Foxman.

Here's the simplest reason "Ze Jews" aren't in favour if the mass immigration of the past few decades; it hurts us. Most of the third world-ers flooding into Europe are by and large, Muslim, who don't have a great fondness for Jews both for religions sake and for the existence of Israel. I read op-eds all the time in various Jewish newspapers bemoaning the booming Muslim population in Europe. If there is some cabal of Jews eagerly shooing the Muslims into Europe, they haven't told the rest of the Jews about it. The rising rates of anti-Semitism in Europe have nothing to do with the native European population, but with the new Muslim immigrants.

I painted a swastika outside a synagogue. Have a struck back against the enemies of white people? No, you malignant little turd. Let me explain something to you; there are two basic groups I can divide Jews into for the purposes of this question. The devout, synagogue-attending Orthodox/Hasidic and the secular Jews-by-ethnicity who tend to be the ones you hate, the bankers and politicians in positions of authority. The devout ones care about two things: studying the Torah and praying to G-d. They don't usually take interest in national or international affairs and they usually vote alongside the fundamental Christians/Conservatives (depending on the country). They're also usually the ones who get shit on when someone has a beef with the Jews, because you can recognise them right away. They have nothing to do with any immigration decision and probably are so religious they don't even get secular newspapers, so they have no idea what you're so pissed about. Due to looking like the Jews you expect, they're also the ones who get attacked by radical Muslim youth in certain places. You think it's unsafe to be white in certain Paris/London suburbs? Try wearing a yarmulke, nevermind having a beard and sidelocks.

What about AIPAC? Doesn't that prove that the Jews run the US Government? AIPAC, like the ADL and WJC I had never heard of before these boards, and I'd like to remind you that I've been Jewish for almost a quarter century. AIPAC, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with Jews at all and is in fact part of one of the best kept secrets in America. Fundamentalist Christians fund Israel. All the groups that give Jews money to settle in Israel, all the groups that sponsor Jewish teens to visit Israel to give them a sense of belonging to the land, are nearly all universally funded by American Evangelicals based on some sort of belief that Jesus won't return until all the Jews are back in Israel. What the borders of Israel are according to Jesus is anyones guess, but I don't know any Jew who has anything to do with AIPAC or benefits from them. American politicians, as far as I can tell, swear fealty to AIPAC in the same way that no politician get reach high office while being athiest, because Americans demand their politicians pray to Jesus and supporting Israel through AIPAC is apparently part of that.

But didn't Ariel Sharon once brag about how America was in his pocket? Yeah, I've heard that too, but until someone can show me a legit source for the quote I don't give a shit. It still has nothing to do with the average, non-Israeli Jew.

So there's a difference? Yes, a Jew is a Jew, an Israeli is an Israeli. Most Jews are not Israeli and not all Israelis are Jews. I hear there's a demographic war going on in Israel right now with everyone trying to out-breed each other, but as stated before, I don't give a shit. I'm English and I'm Jewish. Don't involve me in the politics of a strip of Middle Eastern sand.

Did the Holocaust happen and do you believe six million died? Here's something that separates me from many Jews; I have no connection to the Holocaust. Like I said, my family has been English for a very long time. My grandfathers were in British uniform fighting the Jerry bastards and thats my story. I believe in general it happened. There's too much evidence to argue nothing happened. I've seen photographs, heard from survivors and spoken to soldiers who were there at the liberation (my school would make us visit the old soldiers homes twice a term. I hated it then but I appreciate the history I got to hear now). Is the number as large as six million? I don't know, and I don't think there's any way of finding out. I don't think an incorrect count of the dead excludes the fact that many people died though.

I wear the boots and braces. Are you scared? I grew up in a working class family in a rough area. I can handle myself. You're not threatening and way to co-opt Jamacian culture dumbass.

City or United? United.

Kebab or Curry? Fish 'n Chips

Why do Jews have nappy hair? You know, this is one of the stereotypes I've never gotten. I must have seen thousands of Jews in my lifetime, and maybe 1 out of every 50 had curly hair. Wavy hair is more common, straight hair is somewhere in between.

Is Matzah made from the blood of Christian children? No, it's made from flour, yeast and water, rolled flat and baked until crispy. It also tastes like crap and evokes the same jokes every year about "If its poor-mans-bread, why is it so expensive!? *yuk* *yuk*

Besides, where would Sephardi Jews have gotten a Christian child from? You think the Yemenites had to travel to Greece? Oy, what a schlep!

Yeah, I think you can tell I've run out of things to say. If you've read through all this, congratulations. Have a Mars Bar on me.

[Fededorbprago]

all i want to know is... why are jews so smart

[InvertPrete]

I thanked your post before I found out that you're a ManUre supporter.

But for the rest of it, it's a decent FAQ for the average non-totalitarian Yid. Thumbs up.

all i want to know is... why are jews so smart

Babies are the closest to God, and they drink the blood of Gentile children.

[ladleliDypenue]

Israel...what's your take?

[sbrpkkl]

I demand a Mars bar.

That aside, it was funny and made good reading for 6 in the morning when I'm trying to pull an all nighter before leaving the house at 8.

[XzBZB2UV]

Israel...what's your take?

I did that one already. In a religious sense the country and its holy sites have meaning for me. I don't care to get involved in the quagmire that is the current Israeli state though. I also feel no ethnic ties towards it. My ancestors for the last 2000+ years have been European.

In my opinion, the current wave of propaganda of getting all Jews to end up in Israel is destroying the old Ashkenazi and Sephardi communities. German Jewish culture was distinct from Italian or Moroccan Jewish culture. Thanks to Hitler most of them were killed, and the rest live in Brooklyn, but Israel is also flying them over en-masse to become Israeli. These are ancient cultures being fucked with. Iranian Jews are as Iranian as their Muslim neighbours. They shouldn't have to choose and they shouldn't have to suffer for what the ruling party thinks of Israel.

[Fdmnrnba]

That was a very honest and entertaining read Dean. It is nice to know i share a lot of your views actually. Fortunately i know this is no oddity that i sit on a similiar wave-length to many other regular Jews like yourself.

Question, if your family have lived in England for several centuries, would you not suspect that they may very well also descend from Marrano Jews who escaped to England? Also, pardon my ignorance on this area, but which counties have a greater presence of Jews?

[xanaxnewtrader]

That was a very honest and entertaining read Dean. It is nice to know i share a lot of your views actually. Fortunately i know this is no oddity that i sit on a similiar wave-length to other regular Jews like yourself.

Question, if your family have lived in England for several centuries, would you not suspect that they may very well also descend from Marrano Jews who escaped to England? Also, pardon my ignorance on this area, but which counties have a greater presence of Jews?

I've wondered that myself, since the first Jews allowed into Britain by Cromwell were Marrano refugees. My family has been secular for a long time though and my parents rediscovering of their heritage during the 80s meant that most of the religious customs they took on were the local Ashkenazi sort. The only clue we have is an old picture my grandma has of a man in Eastern dress, but we don't know who he is.

My family didn't keep much history. For example, all I've ever found out about my great-grandfather is that he spent lots of time at the pub and was an avid dart player. My fathers mothers side was in the clothing business, that I have found out, and even found a picture of my great-grandfather with his business partner outside his shop, called "Bailys".

As for demographic distribution, there's always been the greatest number of Jews in the south, London and surrounding areas as thats where the trade and commerce was. Northern Jews used to be in Yorkshire (where my dads family is from) but due to the death of commerce in the area most drifted to London or Lancashire. Today I'd say the greatest concentration of Jews in England are the Golders Green/Hendon area of London and Manchester, although they're all over in small communities if you check such as Leeds and Bradford.

[WhileKelf]

Wouldn't you say that Jewish identity mostly is a maternal ethnicity?

Judaism is a religion & culture, but the 'Jew' identity seems to precede the fact…

Answers??

[trilochana.nejman]

Wouldn't you say that Jewish identity mostly is a maternal ethnicity?

Judaism is a religion & culture, but the 'Jew' identity seems to precede the fact…

Answers??

Well a paternal Jew still comes from Jewish stock, but is only considered a Jew by Rabbinic law if born to a Jewish mother. You could call it a maternal ethnicity in that sense but I don't think it dominates the other. Niels Bohr was just as Danish as he was Jewish, I don't think they somehow dominate or cancel out. Someone born to an Irish father and Jewish mother can still go straight from the St Patricks Parade to Synagogue if they choose.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the 'Jew' identity seems to precede the fact…"

[YmolafBp]

Well a paternal Jew still comes from Jewish stock, but is only considered a Jew by Rabbinic law if born to a Jewish mother. You could call it a maternal ethnicity in that sense but I don't think it dominates the other. Niels Bohr was just as Danish as he was Jewish, I don't think they somehow dominate or cancel out. Someone born to an Irish father and Jewish mother can still go straight from the St Patricks Parade to Synagogue if they choose.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the 'Jew' identity seems to precede the fact…"

What you admit here is that being born to a Jewish mother makes one a 'Jew'. So there is a problem to identify this. It cannot be genetic or phenotypical. In fact, the phenotype of the father does not matter at all. A black guy theoretically could have children with a Jewish girl, and the children would be Jewish…

So there is no genetic or phenotypical distinction as a Jewish identity. There can be a common phenotype, yes, but it does not necessarily correlate to the "Jewish identity".

Everything pertaining to Jewish identity rests with the maternal traditions. So I wonder how that becomes affected by culture, religion, and ethnicity. Since some Jews are Atheists, that rules out religion.

We have culture and ethnicity.

Jews seem to be multi-cultural… and if true, then that would rule-out culture.

That only leaves ethnicity, not passed-on by the father, but only by the mother.

[spaxiaroorbes]

What you admit here is that being born to a Jewish mother makes one a 'Jew'. So there is a problem to identify this. It cannot be genetic or phenotypical. In fact, the phenotype of the father does not matter at all. A black guy theoretically could have children with a Jewish girl, and the children would be Jewish…

So there is no genetic or phenotypical distinction as a Jewish identity. There can be a common phenotype, yes, but it does not necessarily correlate to the "Jewish identity".

Everything pertaining to Jewish identity rests with the maternal traditions. So I wonder how that becomes affected by culture, religion, and ethnicity. Since some Jews are Atheists, that rules out religion.

We have culture and ethnicity.

Jews seem to be multi-cultural… and if true, then that would rule-out culture.

That only leaves ethnicity, not passed-on by the father, but only by the mother.

I see what you're saying. Jews are indeed multicultural. Thats why I bemoaned the fact that the ancient communities of Europe have basically become one cohesive community in New York (Post WW2) and the old Sephardic communities of North Africa and the Middle East are being uprooted to Israel either by choice of unity of animosity from their countrymen against the existence of Israel.

The culture the Jews had in common was a religious one, in tradition and ritual and even then each community had it's own way or style (or in Hebrew, "Minhag") of doing things.

For example, there's a biblical prohibition against mixing meat and dairy, so Jews wont cook them together, but it also became the custom to wait a certain amount of time after eating meat before eating cheese. The Dutch community was the most leniant at 45mins to an hour, the Polish communities would wait up to 6 hours. Now, most Jews just wait six regardless of their ancestral custom because they've all become mixed in the new world and many of the fringe traditions and ways are dying out.

[smifatv]

What you admit here is that being born to a Jewish mother makes one a 'Jew'. So there is a problem to identify this. It cannot be genetic or phenotypical. In fact, the phenotype of the father does not matter at all. A black guy theoretically could have children with a Jewish girl, and the children would be Jewish…

So there is no genetic or phenotypical distinction as a Jewish identity. There can be a common phenotype, yes, but it does not necessarily correlate to the "Jewish identity".

If you are religious, you might ignorantly reject say paternal English ancestry, but if you are not religious you may very well value both sides of the family. If to be Jewish you do not need to have a Jewish father, than ofcourse phenotype has LITTLE correlation at all with what constitutes 'being Jewish'. Really though . . . Phenotype is a poor qualifier for ethnicity anyways. Otherwise their is often a distinctive appearance between someone born to two Jewish parents and non-Jewish parents. The stereotypical appearance varies depending the Jewish communities however. I have to say though, the only Jewish community i can think of who quite resemble their host people are the Yemenite, Bene, Cochim, Ethiopian Jews and some of the Iraqi and Caucasus Jews. Majority others still stand out. Even Turkish Jews often appear different in appearance to both a Spaniard and a Turk. Ashkenazi Jews? We all like to think we can easily recept and pick them out in any crowd. There is no common genetic attribute to being Jewish? I think there definitly is. Even amaeture people in the genetics biz are easily guessing correctly people of half Jewish ancestry just by analysing their PCA positions. On the PCA global plots i sit perfectly in Italy with many other Ashkenazi/Western European people. If you look at the genome studies on different Jewish groups, you notice they form somewhat of a circle around the Syrians, Lebanese and Jordanians, all pulled away by diluted admixtures with other host populations. (often more ancient) Just my 2 cents. Sorry Dean, couldn't resist. The fact that they diverge closer to one another away from host populations and circle around specific ethnic groups is atleast telling us something.

[MackBranon]

What about palestinians, are they former jews that became muslims or just invading bedouins from the peninsula?

[retrahdggd]

What about palestinians, are they former jews that became muslims or just invading bedouins from the peninsula?

In my opinion Jews nowadays have nothing to do with Palestinians and vice versa, unless we are talking about Yemenite Jews who have been Arabized. If you go back thousands of years perhaps Jews share Caanite ancestry that the Phillistines had, but otherwise it really doesn't matter. Jews have long had origins outside Palestine anyways. Both Jews as of today and the inhabitants of Palestine 2000 years ago have shifted genetically their own ways, not largely, but still to an extent. I have this theory that Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews are still a significantly preserved people of old NW Asian stock, similiar to the Phoenicians and Greeks who would go on to establish colonies in Europe and alter the genes of Southern Euro's a little. What Eastern Sephardi/Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks have in common, is an absence of an Arab influence, hence why they fit relatively close on the PCA plots. They are perhaps much remanants of ancient northern Middle Easterners i think. Its a bit like the Druze, who also as if seem far less Arabized than that of the Palestinians and cluster right with the Sephardi Jews . . . .. Yet ofcourse people still consider them native to Israel right? So that just makes matters more complex.

Short answer: No, Palestinians are indigenous. The Jews are not largely genetic strangers, but should not imo rule Israel, but thats politics.

[plogypeskelry]

A person can be considered a Jew several ways. According to Rabbinic law as codified in the Talmud anyone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, no matter the paternal lineage. A Jew can also be someone with no Jewish ethnic heritage who converts to Judaism and/or self identifies as a Jew by following the laws and customs. A person can also be ethnically descended from Jews yet follow not a whit of Judaism, such as being a practising Christian or Muslim, or more commonly, an Atheist.

BS, the paternal lineage does count, even for the most crazed rabbanim.
In comparison, many matrilineals get sued because, even if they are considered Jewish, they lack the tribal component which is defined by the patrilineal lineage:
In a sense, they are considered as mere mamzerim.

On the other hand, why only mention rabbani hala5ah? What about Qarai, Kaifeng or Juhuri hala5ot?

Last but not least, converts (to Yahadut rabbanit) don't really get to be considered Jewish.

[UtidaBrar]

Last but not least, converts (to Yahadut rabbanit) don't really get to be considered Jewish.

I don't think that's true, I've heard many Orthodox Rabbis say that a convert is just as Jewish as the real Jew, something about the person being born with a Jewish soul but not within a Jewish family.

I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side.

Me personally? I think Judaism is more of a religion than an ethnic group, not that there are no real Jews out there, but the fact that you allow people of total different heritage to convert and become Jews right off the bat allows the gene pool to be mixed, which makes the definition of ethnic group rather difficult, you also cannot say that these people are never Jewish because the reality is, those who convert and actually live up to it become real Jews and start marrying Jews, which they pass their genes to the real Jews.

[payporanymn]

I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side.

Thats what i have heard too. Keep in mind there have long been risks for religious intermarriage between Jews. Admixture within Jewish gene pools doesn't look to have been constant either generally, but occured in different historic phases if you look at the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

Me personally? I think Judaism is more of a religion than an ethnic group, not that there are no real Jews out there, but the fact that you allow people of total different heritage to convert and become Jews right off the bat allows the gene pool to be mixed, which makes the definition of ethnic group rather difficult, you also cannot say that these people are never Jewish because the reality is, those who convert and actually live up to it become real Jews and start marrying Jews, which they pass their genes to the real Jews I often heard you could either be a religious Jew, an ethnic Jew, or both and that contemporary converts can only be considered religious Jews. Dean might need to inform me about this. Your line of argument is basically just saying that within the Jewish genepool there are converts and that this practically denounces the possibility of such Jewish ethnic groups possibly existing. I take it you are arguing this from a genetic perspective. What i should point out than is that all people going back descend from many other peoples, regardless whether some boast a greater sense of genealogical isolation. What i think will debunk the notion of a genetic ethnicity is their PCA positions on plots. Notice different Jewish groups all cluster in designated areas? You cannot deny that, like i cannot deny that Assyrians are forming their own also. Therefore what we can safely say is that both groups obviously have a unique broader geneaology pattern, irrespective whether they absorbed different ethnic groups or not. These patterns seem very consistent. If you look at the K admixture panel tests, there is such an even cut-off between Jewish groups, there is a lack of fluctuating Northern European, Mozabite or Southern European ancestry panels. This is the reality.

Edit: Your right that Jew per se . . . . is not a valid genetic ethnicity. The different ethnic branches on the other hand are. Italian, Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish Jews for example form a very very tight knit group on the PCA plots interestingly. They fit past Greece with the Cypriots and within Druze boundaries. Ashkenazi Jews (little pull NE from them) otherwise come close, however slightly form their own, same goes for Moroccan Jews. (little pull towards Egypt)

[F1grandprix]

I don't think that's true, I've heard many Orthodox Rabbis say that a convert is just as Jewish as the real Jew

The usual custom was to deny potential converts at least three times, if they asked one more time; then their request was taken seriously.
On the other hand, I've heard many converts (including patrilineal Jews) complain about the fact that they were called "gentiles who converted".

One must retain that according to Bava-battra and Kiddushin, conversion means negating your roots... You get to bring the pieces together by your very own self.

something about the person being born with a Jewish soul but not within a Jewish family. In the same way, rabanut is as quick as you to threaten of "Karet" (spiritual death) anyone that speaks against their interpretation.

I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side.
Nonsense, I've heard this pseudo-argument so many times.
I'll make it simple, matrilineal descent has never been considered as "safe" by Jews.... If you don't believe me, I recall mele5 Å*lomo's ordeal with two women claiming a single child (you might've heard about it ).
I can also point out that matrilineal descent was a judicial reality in the roman empire and may've been pasted during talmudic times.
I could also point out that all descent is traced patrilineally in the TaNa5...
I actually could go on for ages like this, but I think I've made my point:

Matrilineal descent has never been anywhere near certainty.

[milfovoxapl]

I'm on my phone typing from an airport so I dont really have the typing ability to flesh out my arguments here, but semetic duea I've never heard of a single orthodox rabbi who will accept someone as a Jew based on patrelinial descent. In fact the opposite, I heard of a girl who was asked to leave a seminary in israel when she mentioned her mother wasn't Jewish. Very sad IMO.

I've also never heard of converts being treated differently. In the eyes of Halacha they're as any born Jew and to treat them badly is a serious sin. Doesn't the Torah talk about being kind to the stranger and convert amongst you? Anyways if a convert gets treated differently that's just someone being an asshole, not emblematic of Jews at large. I know a few converts and they've never had any issues.