[Dwencejed]

I'm on my phone typing from an airport so I dont really have the typing ability to flesh out my arguments here, but semetic duea I've never heard of a single orthodox rabbi who will accept someone as a Jew based on patrelinial descent.

I never said that they would accept patrilineals as Jewish (some did, but we haven't got much info about this either, and most of it happened prior to the 1990s [I know such a person who was accepted but that was back in 1972.....]).
I was pointing out the fact that you softly push aside the patrilineal line as irrelevant, which; if anything, is a gross simplification of status determination b'Yahadut (the father defining the tribal heritage, this is why a patrilineal will never get called a "stranger" in Israel, a "goy" perhaps; but not a stranger.... The same cannot be said for matrilineals I'm afraid. [also keep in mind that I'm a Kohen, even 7aredim won't dare to call me "goy"; only brainless/ignorant non-hackers will.])

In fact the opposite, I heard of a girl who was asked to leave a seminary in israel when she mentioned her mother wasn't Jewish. Very sad IMO. That's nothing compared to rabbanut's ordeal with patrilineals:

We don't get the right to marry (ever wondered why so many Israelis celebrate their unions in Cyrpus?!), to be buried in Jewish cemetaries and to live in kibbutzim or yishuv.
We also get the "no religion" brand on our ID cards.

I've also never heard of converts being treated differently. In the eyes of Halacha they're as any born Jew and to treat them badly is a serious sin. Doesn't the Torah talk about being kind to the stranger and convert amongst you? Yes, for we were gerim b'mitzrayim, though the Talmud often contradicts this statement (as it often does for many other TaNa5ic statements as a mater of fact).

Anyways if a convert gets treated differently that's just someone being an asshole, not emblematic of Jews at large. I know a few converts and they've never had any issues. That's where I beg to differ: Harabbanut keeps lists of mamzerim in Israel.
Converts also qualify for these lists as they can only marry mamzerim and other converts.
(The nonsense goes so far nowadays that even full Jews have to prove their Jewishness to rabbani authorities:
http://www.irac.org/NewsDetailes.aspx?ID=715)

[BloofPailafum]

I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side.

That could possibly be an explanation. I've heard/read that Jews began passing on their ancestry via the mother because many Jewish women were being taken/married off to non-Jews. Passing the ancestry down maternally allowed the community to claim the offspring that were produced outside of the community. Pretty clever decision, helped community attain access to power/resources/etc; Jewish woman marries a King... offspring (princes/princesses) are still seen as Jewish. And since the rest of the world recognizes paternal ancestry, the offspring are still believed to be their father's descendants. Same goes for Jewish males; they marry a non-Jew and the rest of the world (including Jews) would still sees them as Jews.

Me personally? I think Judaism is more of a religion than an ethnic group, not that there are no real Jews out there, but the fact that you allow people of total different heritage to convert and become Jews right off the bat allows the gene pool to be mixed, which makes the definition of ethnic group rather difficult, you also cannot say that these people are never Jewish because the reality is, those who convert and actually live up to it become real Jews and start marrying Jews, which they pass their genes to the real Jews. Judaism is a religion. But being Jewish is more ambiguous/complex.

[Petrushkaukrop]

Do Jews have Jewdar?

[bypeTeenehalT]

That could possibly be an explanation. I've heard/read that Jews began passing on their ancestry via the mother because many Jewish women were being taken/married off to non-Jews.

Nonsense once more, if such a thing was true, then why keep the Kohen and Levite castes?
What about the temporary law which classified matrilineals as certified mamzerim (a law which was partly abrogated)?

Doesn't make any sense imo.

Passing the ancestry down maternally allowed the community to claim the offspring that were produced outside of the community. Pretty clever decision, helped community attain access to power/resources/etc; Jewish woman marries a King... offspring (princes/princesses) are still seen as Jewish. And since the rest of the world recognizes paternal ancestry, the offspring are still believed to be their father's descendants. Same goes for Jewish males; they marry a non-Jew and the rest of the world (including Jews) would still sees them as Jews. In definitive, you all fail to address Yahadut's diversity.
Don't we Qara2im qualify as Yehudim (some rabbanim would jump on the table and scream but nvm, as long as they use our canonical classification in liturgy, afra lefumê)? What about Juhurim and Kaifeng?

But you'd rather stay clutched to your monolithic view, so I won't bother you any further in your delirium

[CVEGK7mV]

Nonsense once more, if such a thing was true, then why keep the Kohen and Levite castes?
What about the temporary law which classified matrilineals as certified mamzerim (a law which was partly abrogated)?

Doesn't make any sense imo.



In definitive, you all fail to address Yahadut's diversity.
Don't we Qara2im qualify as Yehudim (some rabbanim would jump on the table and scream but nvm, as long as they use our canonical classification in liturgy, afra lefumê)? What about Juhurim and Kaifeng?

But you'd rather stay clutched to your monolithic view, so I won't bother you any further in your delirium

You fool... I'm referring to the origins of the practice. What Rabbis/Jews/etc do today is a different story.

[GetsTan]

You fool... I'm referring to the origins of the practice.

The origin of matrilineality b'Yahadut are uncertain, I personally think that P'rušim pasted the roman law for status determination (which was also matrilineal).
After all, Josephus does state that P'rušim were pro-roman and as such, this hypothesis of mine becomes plausible.

What Rabbis/Jews/etc do today is a different story. What rabbanim do today is irrelevant to the "origins of the practice", so your outburst looks rather odd

[Controller]

That could possibly be an explanation. I've heard/read that Jews began passing on their ancestry via the mother because many Jewish women were being taken/married off to non-Jews. Passing the ancestry down maternally allowed the community to claim the offspring that were produced outside of the community. Pretty clever decision, helped community attain access to power/resources/etc; Jewish woman marries a King... offspring (princes/princesses) are still seen as Jewish. And since the rest of the world recognizes paternal ancestry, the offspring are still believed to be their father's descendants. Same goes for Jewish males; they marry a non-Jew and the rest of the world (including Jews) would still sees them as Jews.

This has been documented, but it was still a rarity. I have heard of Sephardic queens and willing conversions (much prior to the Inquisition) into Christianity followed by marriages. This had to have been a rarity otherwise why else would Sephardi Jews be clearly an Eastern Mediterranean people, as opposed to being genetically West-Mediterranean or anything remotely close to an Iberian?

Judaism is a religion. But being Jewish is more ambiguous/complex. I guess stateless nomadic people are supposably also thought to have an ambiguous ethnicity. This is a shame. I think genetics, geneaology, ancestral languages, customs, culture, cuisine should be enough to rate you as either belonging (or partially) to an ethnic group. National borders aren't everything. You might be American and Nigerian, but you still have a right to affiliate with being Igbo and for many, i know this may seem just as important.

[Lictimind]

On the other hand, Moshe rabbênu's children were all patrilineal Jews (Geršom vaÊliezer, both born to Tziporah hamadyanit) and his own sister, Miriam; was punished with Tzarat for speaking against his union with a Kushite woman.... So much for the origins of matrilineal descent b'Yahadut

[wgX44EEn]

When it comes to genetics, it couldn't care less what line you are Jewish on, whether maternal or paternal, if you are N European or NW European with Ashkenazi or East Sephardi Jewish, theres a well above 90% chance you will cluster with Italians.

[GenManagerS]

Moshe married before the Torah was given so technically there couldn't have been any issue of descent since there were no Jews yet. Or am I just being pendatic?

[smifatv]

When it comes to genetics, it couldn't care less what line you are Jewish on, whether maternal or paternal, if you are N European or NW European with Ashkenazi or East Sephardi Jewish, theres a well above 90% chance you will cluster with Italians.

Well in that sense, if we throw genetics out I guess Judaism can be considered as a culture, this culture can create the ethnicity over time if the group remains to itself without a lot of mixing.

[Piemonedmow]

Moshe married before the Torah was given so technically there couldn't have been any issue of descent since there were no Jews yet. Or am I just being pendatic?

Well tried, but they're far from being the only patrilineals in the tribe.
Another thought for Re7av3am, Å*'lomo's son and king of Mal5ut Yehudah

[Metrujectiktus]

Well in that sense, if we throw genetics out I guess Judaism can be considered as a culture, this culture can create the ethnicity over time if the group remains to itself without a lot of mixing.

IMO there is no major Jewish culture, which is why Israel has become quite the garbage platter Dean said earlier on as different Jewish sub-cultures disintegrate. Despite the nomadic history of different Jewish groups, with such mixing interactions with people, i believe this is how much of their culture has emerged. They have obviously borrowed ideas, but put their own spin to it. Not to mention . . . Contributing partially like other minorities also to the culture of Europe. (LOL Maranno's invented Fish and Chips!) Take for example the philosopher Spinoza and other past poets, musicians and people in the arts/entertainment sectors. Ladino is a language unique to Sephardi Jews, as Yiddish is to the Ashkenazim, with both also following Hebrew as the universal language of the Jews. They have their own cuisine, the Sephardim being mostly 'mediterranean' similiar to southern Italian if i remember reading somewhere, whilst the Ashkenazim have their own Matzah balls and other more renowned dishes. Ofcourse different styles of music influenced heavily by their geographic regions and the hosts present. You see these are all cultural facets they developed without isolation but mild intermingling with others. There is no doubt such thing as cultural distinctions between Jewish groups. It would be ignorant to think Jews come from an uncultured background. More proof here again that they qualify for an ethnic group just like any other stateless person.

Is there anyway in which being Assyrian is a more valid ethnicity than say a sub-Jewish ethnicity? I would like to know, because i personally see both as legit ethnicities frankly.

[Reocourgigiot]

I'm patrilinearly Sephardi , I like alot the people from the community , especially in France , they are one of the most productive ethnic group , I've even seen an important agence with my own family name. They suffered alot through history (many people usually forget that) but were always standing up , that is what I most admire. people should stop with prejudices btw :/

[gDGwm8BC]

Is there anyway in which being Assyrian is a more valid ethnicity than say a sub-Jewish ethnicity? I would like to know, because i personally see both as legit ethnicities frankly.

Genetics a side, Assyrians are more likely to pass for an ethnic group than Jews based on the fact that Assyrians have not been in the diaspora as long as the Jews have, we still speak the same language our ancestors spoke, we still retain our middle eastern looks for most part, we still practice the same culture, and we don't have a big diversity within our communities as the Jews do.

The biggest differences within Assyrian communities you'll find is with the Church they follow and the dialect they speak, but as far as culture and language it's all the same, with Jews it seems like not only are there different sects, there are very different communities when it comes to language and culture too, you have Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi being the biggest divisions, along with other minor ones, all these differ from one another greatly when it comes to language and culture.

I'll give you a good example, a Kurdish Jew is probably a lot closer to an Assyrian when it comes to looks, language, and culture, but only differs in religion, how do you define this Jew's ethnic background?

Mind you, I agree that the Jews do have a valid claim to be an ethnic group, I just think the diaspora has made these major divisions with them and if you look at our Assyrian people, we will likely follow the same path, obviously it does not show now since we have not been in the diaspora for that long, the oldest Assyrian diaspora lives in Russia/Ukraine and it's not even 300 years old, so go figure.

[parurorges]

it all really depends because someone who converted to judaism and practices the jewish faith to me is more jewish than i am because although my father is jewish.. i dont practice judaism at all and follow the christian faith.

[gueremaisse]

it all really depends because someone who converted to judaism and practices the jewish faith to me is more jewish than i am because although my father is jewish.. i dont practice judaism at all and follow the christian faith.

That's not true. The converted will be religiously , however , if you're dad is Sephardi/Mizrahi , then you'll still be more than he is in an ethnically way , my dad is of sephardi/mizrahi descent , and If I take a 23andme test It'll be noticeable , way more than a converted , even though I don't follow the religion at all for example.

[G8whlTAe]

That's not true. The converted will be religiously , however , if you're dad is Sephardi/Mizrahi , then you'll still be more "jewish" than he is in an ethnically way (but also religiously through you're grandfather) , my dad is of Sephardi descent , and If I took a 23andme test It'll be easily noticeable , more so than a converted , even though I don't follow the religion at all.

well if you mean being jewish an a ethnic sense thats different but to me being a jew is following the religion and traditions of the tora. because really im not a jew.. by blood my ancestry can be traced to that region but in terms of religion and culture a convert to judaism has more right to be jewish that me.

[beenBinybelia]

well if you mean being jewish an a ethnic sense thats different but to me being a jew is following the religion and traditions of the tora. because really im not a jew.. by blood my ancestry can be traced to that region but in terms of religion and culture a convert to judaism has more right to be jewish that me.

That is your own view on the thing , in fact , there are sub-ethnic groups within it , and you can identitify your part with one specific group , doesnt mean you're not part puerto rican though or christian by faith i agree.

[MpbY5dkR]

Sorry, but I don't buy it.