[Alupleintilla]

Are Germans ruder than the British? Are Britons more dishonest than Germans? Fortunately, we don't have to rely on blind prejudice for answers. Serious academic research has been done on both sides of the North Sea.

There are Britons in Berlin who get taken aback by the directness of Germans. And there are Germans who get really annoyed when Britons (and Americans), in an effort to appear friendly, say things they don't really mean. Some Germans call this "lying".

So, what do the experts say on the matter?

Professor Juliane House, of the University of Hamburg, has studied groups of people interacting in controlled situations, watching with academic rigour how they behave as human guinea-pigs.

She found (or verified) that Germans really don't do small talk, those little phrases so familiar to the British about the weather or a person's general well-being, but which she describes as "empty verbiage".

In academic language, this is "phatic" conversation - it's not meant to convey hard information but to perform some social function, such as making people feel good.

The German language doesn't even have an expression for "small talk", she says. It is so alien that in the German translation of A Bear called Paddington - Paddington unser kleiner Baer - it was omitted.

So this exchange of small talk occurs in the English original: "'Hallo Mrs Bird,' said Judy. 'It's nice to see you again. How's the rheumatism?' 'Worse than it's ever been' began Mrs. Bird."

In the German edition, this passage is simply cut.

Might a German talk about the weather, then?

"In a lift or a doctor's waiting room, talk about the weather in German? I don't think so," she says.

So does that mean the British are more polite? No, just different.

For their part, the British have what House calls the "etiquette of simulation". The British feign an interest in someone. They pretend to want to meet again when they don't really. They simulate concern.

Saying things like "It's nice to meet you" are rarely meant the way they are said, she says. "It's just words. It's simulating interest in the other person."

From a German perspective, this is uncomfortably close to deceit.

"Some people say that the British and Americans lie when they say things like that. It's not a lie. It's lubricating social life. It's always nice to say things like that even if you don't mean them," says House.

Blunt or direct?

For Britons it's German directness that most often gives rise to bafflement or even fury. House, who married a Scouser - a native of Liverpool - gives an example from her own experience.

She would tell her husband to bring something from another part of the house - without the British lardings of "would you mind...?" or "could you do me a favour...?"

He would hear this as an abrupt - and rude - command.

This gap between German directness and British indirectness is the source of much miscommunication, says Professor Derek Bousfield, the head of linguistics at the University of Central Lancashire, and one of the editors of the Journal of Politeness Research.

There are many documented cases where the British understate a very serious problem with phrases like "there seem to be one or two problems here" or "there seems to be a little bit of an issue with this", he says.

A British listener knows there is a gap between what is said and what is meant - and this can be a source of humour, as when the Grim Reaper's arrival at a dinner party in Monty Python's Meaning of Life "casts rather a gloom" over the evening.

Sometimes it's endearing, or at least the British think it is, as when this announcement was made by British Airways pilot Eric Moody in 1982, after flying through a cloud of volcanic ash over Indonesia:

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress."

But it can also be confusing if you're not used to it.

When BMW bought the British car manufacturer, Rover, it took a while for the seriousness of some of the problems at Rover to sink in. All too often, British managers spoke in euphemisms that their German counterparts took at face value.

Beach towels at dawn

Both professors reject the idea that one nation's manners are better than the other's. Each has its own rules of communication, or patterns of behaviour, and neither can be blamed, they say, when clashes occur.

What about those sun-loungers - the seats by the pool, which German holidaymakers allegedly grab at the crack of dawn?

"I think what you've got there is a clash of prototypical German efficiency with the prototypical British sense of fair play," says Bousfield.

House reckons the British do get the sun-loungers in the end, by one means or another.

"The British want the sun-lounger, but they do it differently," she says.

"Are the British devious? Yes, but why should you directly go for something if it doesn't work? Devious is not a bad thing." BBC News

I found this quite interesting (made me smile too) and definitely have noticed it. I've been in many situations with German people where they've said something and I've thought: 'if this person were English, I probably would be offended'.

I'd be interested to see what Germans think about this?

[O25YtQnn]

I'm no German... but this is true and wonderful. I love bluntness and honesty. I hate when people muck around with fake words. I'll take a trip to Germany before England any day.

[bahrain41]

No offence to anybody. That thread just remind me that colonial proverb:

British , French ,Spanish and Russians are the leaders
Germans, Scandinavians, Polish, Greek and northern italians, are the workers
Portuguese, Balkanians, Southern italians and eastern euro are the cleaners

[ebookinfo]

No offence to anybody. That thread just remind me that colonial proverb:

British , French ,Spanish and Russians are the leaders
Germans, Scandinavians, Polish, Greek and northern italians, are the workers
Portuguese, Balkanians, Southern italians and eastern euro are the cleaners

that seems far too... anthropologically specific.. to be a proverb.

Also, Jews are the bankers.

[casinoboneerer]

I read that article earlier today, its quite interesting.


I totally relate it back to Turkey, they are worst than the Brits, buttering up every single thing, I feel like im talking to Carebears disguised as humans sometimes.

I wonder what the Germans would think of the Turks then...

In Turkey I was accused of being "too blunt" or too straight talking, and that I should soften my approach, whereas according to the Germans we are too polite as it is !!

[allvideO]

I've often found that merely phrasing a request differently (even where two people speak the same language) can lead to problems, I once got into a rather bitter argument with an American online after he said, "I'm going to need to have you..." (it pertained to a political discussion we were having, he wanted me to re-watch a video), I told him in less than polite terms that I wasn't his f***ing servant or some errand boy and that I wasn't happy he had spoken to me as though I were.

I later learned that, supposedly, "I'll need to have you..." is a neutral way for an American to make a request, possibly he just said that to placate me but it could be that I simply misinterpeted his tone due to the conversation being online (where you only get words, not any intonation, affect or body language).

[BariGrootrego]

Interesting discussion idea...
Rudest/bluntest country in the world? I say Israel.

[STYWOMBORGOSY]

Interesting discussion idea...
Rudest/bluntest country in the world? I say Israel.

Probably, I've been asked for directions by Israelis on a couple of occasions never got a 'Thank you' after obliging them.

[provigil]

No offence to anybody. That thread just remind me that colonial proverb:

British , French ,Spanish and Russians are the leaders
Germans, Scandinavians, Polish, Greek and northern italians, are the workers
Portuguese, Balkanians, Southern italians and eastern euro are the cleaners

In what colony is that a proverb ?

[saumemeva]

I'm extremely polite when I am a guest somewhere or somehow. If I am somewhere where I will affect other people who didn't necessarily consent to my presence. Like in a restaurant, or a movie theatre, or something like that.
However, the moment someone asks me a question, I will answer it completely bluntly, without any beating around the bush. I am not afraid to laugh at any jokes and will often make others uncomfortable with my own. But that is if I know them and it is a voluntary conversation. I will not even word a question or statement any less bluntly if it will have a dramatically better outcome for me.

In this way, I think I have an attitude similar to the Germans. Except I love nazi jokes.

[Caunnysup]

I think that Nigerians are quite rude.

[Ceriopal]

I think that Nigerians are quite rude.

really? I've only met one Nigerian girl, but she is the most polite and kind person I've ever met. She's extremely christian, and she holds her tongue when she should say things. Which is somewhat annoying... But you think Nigerians are rude? I've never met a rude (subsaharan)African.

[imictiorume]

Nigerians are extremely rude at times.

I don't think they mean to be, it's just how they are.

I have come across many Nigerians in my time.... when I was a teenager I worked in a clothes shop that Nigerian women loved to death!!

[Quick$bux]

In what colony is that a proverb ?

I don't said it was from a colony. I said it was a colonial proverb, like a proverb with a colonial connotations. I don't agree with those kind a proverb.

But that proverb, could be interessant to study because France, England, Russia and Spain were countries with a big colonial empire. We can put Portugal too, but it was less long in duration.

Germans, Scandinavians, Polish, Greek and northern italians were use for be farmers and settlers . If you look in the new world countries most of peoples descendants and thoses countries and most of them are descendants of farmers. We can put Irish too

Portuguese, Balkanians, Southern italians and eastern euro wasn't really wished , and made the most painful job. In exemple, in France, it's the portuguese who make the worst job, the one french don't want make.

[shiciapsisy]

I'm extremely polite when I am a guest somewhere or somehow. If I am somewhere where I will affect other people who didn't necessarily consent to my presence. Like in a restaurant, or a movie theatre, or something like that.

Same here, generally. I always hold doors open, smile, say Thank you etc especially at restaurants, God knows what they do to the food of people who are rude.

However, the moment someone asks me a question, I will answer it completely bluntly, without any beating around the bush. I am not afraid to laugh at any jokes and will often make others uncomfortable with my own. But that is if I know them and it is a voluntary conversation. I will not even word a question or statement any less bluntly if it will have a dramatically better outcome for me.

I find that being brutally honest either works well or works terribly. I have more than once said something to someone, particularly girls when they're in that 13/14/15 year old time period, and it has ended up with them angry (if it's a man) or crying (if it's a woman).

Sometimes I literally couldn't understand what I had done to offend the person, and under such circumstances its hard to show genuine remorse.

[Txaizdxx]

I would say I'm pretty polite. I don't like to cause offence if I don't mean it. That doesn't go to say I get all funny around people, though I like to keep the mood light-hearted and prefer not to have any tension.

I think it shows courtesy to be conscious of how one's behaviour affects others.

Edit: It just dawned on me how gay that sounds. Just for the record, I'm not some little fairy prancing about straightening peoples' ties. I just prefer to get on with people and choose to assume everyone is cool until they prove otherwise.

[Seesspoxy]

I don't said it was from a colony. I said it was a colonial proverb, like a proverb with a colonial connotations. I don't agree with those kind a proverb.

I can't attest to the use of the proverb you cited, but I have come across examples of people in colonies, especially when foreigners were flooding in to populate the area, making use of generalisations and stereotypes to deal with groups of people who were alien to them.

For example, supposedly a rule of thumb existed in 19th century America that a German did twice the work of an Irishman and an Irishman did twice the work of a Negro. Or something along those lines, I know it went German > Irishman > Negro. It wouldn't have held true in every case, an exceptionally indolent German or an exceptionally industrious Black man would have shown up every so often, but to colonials and people in a multi-cultural area of any kind stereotypes are useful.

---------- Post added 2011-05-27 at 02:39 ----------

I like to keep the mood light-hearted and prefer not to have any tension.

Same here. I can't stand people who make situations unecessarily awkward. I have a friend who is constantly on edge, everything is a competition to him and he takes offence very easily. It can get quite tense after a prolonged period of time in each other's company, a missplaced word and he'll silently explode.

Although I also find subject changers very annoying, when you're in a social situation and two people are teetering on the edge of an argument the worst thing in the world is the asshole who steers the conversation to a less volatile topic. Well....I am a bit of a shit stirrer when the mood takes me.

[ibupronec]

Same here. I can't stand people who make situations unecessarily awkward. I have a friend who is constantly on edge, everything is a competition to him and he takes offence very easily. It can get quite tense after a prolonged period of time in each other's company, a missplaced word and he'll silently explode.

Although I also find subject changers very annoying, when you're in a social situation and two people are teetering on the edge of an argument the worst thing in the world is the asshole who steers the conversation to a less volatile topic. Well....I am a bit of a shit stirrer when the mood takes me.

Precisely. I can't stand awkwardness. I'll generally just leave if an argument seems imminent, as I hate that awkwardness too, just sitting there knowing shit's gonna go down.

[denwerdinoss]

i can't speak for brits because i haven't really met any. but i have met a handful of germans.. there is an army base near by and you have alot of families with german mothers and american fathers.. similar to seeing mixed korean families..its pretty common.


from my experience germans are very blunt and direct with what they say,but not necessarily rude, i haven't ever felt like i was being disrespected by them, infact when i was living with my grandmother a friend and neighbor was german.. his mother was very nice and would have us over for cake and pie and dinner occasionally. all in all they are very hospitable, but i have noticed that with their children they are very strict and no nonsense parents, and i've noticed that every german house i went into they made a big deal about taking off your shoes at the door. i thought that was odd, but the more that i think of it their houses were emaculate.
something else i noticed, every other german/american couple is a black and white couple.. i dont know whats up with german chicks and black men but they seem to love the brothers. and they are notorious chainsmokers and drinkers. i don't think i've ever met one who didnt have a cigarette in their hands.


anyways, just things i noticed.. any germans who can explain this further, i.e. their love for black men and smoking, or their obcessive need to keep their house clean, or why they insist that i take off my shoes when i come to their house, this would be much appreciated.

[Zhgpavye]

Precisely. I can't stand awkwardness. I'll generally just leave if an argument seems imminent, as I hate that awkwardness too, just sitting there knowing shit's gonna go down.

I don't like awkwardness, which is why I prefer arguments. They are short and then they're over, and whatever people want to say is said and aired. Sometimes things are better left unsaid entirely, but the worst form of communication is being awkward and giving people the cold shoulder.