[Ferrotoral]

Ghetto holds a different meaning now than it used to. European Jews did not make up the lower-class.

[XU8i6ysK]

Erm, are you trying to imply that living in a European ghetto pre-enlightenment means that they were of a lower socio-economic class than most? I honestly can't follow your reasoning on that one.

Are you saying that the ghetto jews had a high socio-economic status in pre-Enlightenment Europe?

Also I just read recently that jews in the Ottoman Empire tended to be relegated to jobs like butchers, tanners, excrement handlers etc that are generally considered very low in the socio-economic scale. In fact these are precisely the kind of jobs that the outcastes/untouchables of India traditionally did. Does that mean these jews were dumber than most muslims in the middle-east?

[MaugleeRobins]

Are you saying that the ghetto jews had a high socio-economic status in pre-Enlightenment Europe? I don't see how my opinion is pertinent to the question? I'm saying I don't understand your line of reasoning, so please explain yourself without trying to deflect any more questions.

Also I just read recently that jews in the Ottoman Empire tended to be relegated to jobs like butchers, tanners, excrement handlers etc that are generally considered very low in the socio-economic scale. In fact these are precisely the kind of jobs that the outcastes/untouchables of India traditionally did. Does that mean these jews were dumber than most muslims in the middle-east? It means that you have horrible sources, or that you're full of shit.

The Sephardim of Thessaloniki were the exclusive tailors for the Ottoman Janissaries, and enjoyed economic prosperity through commercial trading in the Balkans.

After their expulsion from Spain, between fifteen and twenty thousand more Sephardim settled in Thessaloniki. According to the Jewish Virtual Library: "Greece became a haven of religious tolerance for Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition and other persecution in Europe. The Ottomans welcomed the Jews because they improved the economy. Jews occupied administrative posts and played an important role in intellectual and commercial life throughout the empire." [10] These immigrants established the city's first printing press, and the city became known as a centre for commerce and learning.[1] The exile of other Jewish communities swelled the city's Jewish population, until Jews were the majority population in 1519. source


The history of the Ottoman Jews is rich with mutual complementary cultural influences. The Jews coming from Spain established the first printing presses that had just emerged as a most important tool of the modern culture. Many Jewish doctors served in the courts of Ottoman sultans and in the Ottoman army (see Sephardic house archives for detailed lists with names). Jews engaged in commerce enhanced trade between countries of the region for the benefit of all. The religious freedom allowed the flourishing of famous rabbis that produced outstanding works of comments on the Old Testament. source


For 300 years following the expulsion, the prosperity and creativity of the Ottoman Jews rivaled that of the Golden Age of Spain. Four Turkish cities: Istanbul, Izmir, Safed and Salonica became the centers of Sephardic Jewry.

Most of the court physicians were Jews: Hakim Yakoub, Joseph and Moshe Hamon, Daniel Fonseca, Gabriel Buenauentura to name only very few ones.

One of the most significant innovations that Jews brought to the Ottoman Empire was the printing press. In 1493, only one year after their expulsion from Spain, David & Samuel ibn Nahmias established the first Hebrew printing press in Istanbul .

Ottoman diplomacy was often carried out by Jews. Joseph Nasi, appointed the Duke of Naxos, was the former Portuguese Marrano Joao Miques. Another Portuguese Marrano, Aluaro Mandes, was named Duke of Mytylene in return of his diplomatic services to the Sultan. Salamon ben Nathan Eskenazi arranged the first diplomatic ties with the British Empire. Jewish women such as Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi "La Seniora" and Esther Kyra exercised considerable influence in the Court. source

[adarmaSen]

I don't see how my opinion is pertinent to the question? I'm saying I don't understand your line of reasoning, so please explain yourself without trying to deflect any more questions.

What are you, retarded? Explain the huge difference in the socio-economic status of the european jews before and after the Enlightenment? Any idiot can see that it was only after the jews were liberated from their ghettos by the egalitarian Enlightenment and allowed full participation in european education and european society that they rose to the top in both the intellectual and economic fronts.


It means that you either have horrible sources, or that you're full of shit. Unfortunately for you it is you who is full of shit:

http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/IQ/IQ.htm


The Jews of Islam, although reproductively isolated, did not have the concentration of occupations with high IQ elasticity. Some had such jobs in some of the Arab world, in some periods, but it seems it was never the case that most did. In part this was because other minority groups competed successfully for these jobs — Greek Christians, Armenians, etc., in part because Moslems, at least some of the time, took many of those jobs themselves, valuing non-warrior occupations more highly than did medieval Christians. In fact, to a large extent, and especially during the last six or seven hundred years of relative Moslem decline, the Jews of Islam tended to have “dirty” jobs (Lewis, 1984). These included such tasks as cleaning cesspools and drying the contents for use as fuel — a common Jewish occupation in Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and Central Asia. Jews were also found as tanners, butchers, hangmen, and other disagreeable or despised occupations. Such jobs must have had low IQ elasticity; brilliant tanners and hangmen almost certainly did not become rich.

[actioliGalm]

What are you, retarded? Explain the huge difference in the socio-economic status of the european jews before and after the Enlightenment? Any idiot can see that it was only after the jews were liberated from their ghettos by the egalitarian Enlightenment and allowed full participation in european education and european society that they rose to the top in both the intellectual and economic fronts. Their situation improved, sure, but how did you reach the conclusion that their situation was bad because they lived in their own quarters?

The Jews of Islam, although reproductively isolated, did not have the concentration of occupations with high IQ elasticity. Some had such jobs in some of the Arab world, in some periods, but it seems it was never the case that most did. In part this was because other minority groups competed successfully for these jobs — Greek Christians, Armenians, etc., in part because Moslems, at least some of the time, took many of those jobs themselves, valuing non-warrior occupations more highly than did medieval Christians. In fact, to a large extent, and especially during the last six or seven hundred years of relative Moslem decline, the Jews of Islam tended to have “dirty” jobs (Lewis, 1984). These included such tasks as cleaning cesspools and drying the contents for use as fuel — a common Jewish occupation in Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and Central Asia. Jews were also found as tanners, butchers, hangmen, and other disagreeable or despised occupations. Such jobs must have had low IQ elasticity; brilliant tanners and hangmen almost certainly did not become rich. It's pretty clear that your source isn't really discussing the Jews of the Ottoman empire as such, but the Jews in the Muslim world in general, and is mostly referring to areas that were either peripheral to the Ottoman empire, or not a part of it at all. Anyway, Jews often occupy jobs that the host population is unlikely to pursue(such as usury in Europe). I'm not sure what indication that could give of their intelligence.

[bitymnmictada]

http://www.intel.com/about/corporate.../sts/index.htm

Intel Science Talent Search, a program of Society for Science & the Public, is America's oldest and most prestigious pre-college science competition. Every year, roughly 1,600 U.S. high school seniors enter the Intel Science Talent Search with original science projects. Forty finalists, representing the best and brightest young scientific minds in America, go on to compete for over USD 1.25 million in awards and scholarships.



The Finalists this year:

http://www.societyforscience.org/page.aspx?pid=728


Of the 40 finalists 17 are east asians (overwhelmingly chinese-americans) and 10 are south asians (all indian-americans it looks like). So asian-americans who constitute just 5% of the american population produced 67.5% of the finalists in this competition that rewards creativity and innovation in research. Quite remarkable.

Don't compare yourself to the Chinese ratface.

[avaiguite]

Their situation improved, sure, but how did you reach the conclusion that their situation was bad because they lived in their own quarters?

Apparently you have a fantasy of the jewish ghettos of Europe as being wealthy gated communities filled with rich money lenders or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe

In 1565, Pope Paul IV created the Roman Ghetto and issued papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, forcing Jews to live in a specified area. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, owing to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was designated to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants. However, over the years, the Jewish community grew, which caused severe overcrowding. Since the area could not expand horizontally (the ghetto was surrounded by high walls), the Jews built vertical additions to their houses, which blocked the sun from reaching the already dank and narrow streets. Life in the Roman Ghetto was one of crushing poverty, due to the severe restrictions placed upon the professions that Jews were allowed to perform.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Judengasse

The Frankfurter Judengasse (from German: “Jews' Alley”) was the Jewish ghetto of Frankfurt and one of the earliest ghettos in Germany. It existed from 1462 until 1796 and was home to Germany's largest Jewish community in early modern times.

Initially, some 15 families with about 110 members lived in Frankfurt's Judengasse when they were forcibly removed from the city and relocated to the ghetto by decree of Frederick III in 1462. By the 16th century, the number of inhabitants rose to over 3,000, living in 195 houses.[2] The ghetto had one of the highest population densities in Europe. Contemporary documents described it as narrow, oppressive and dirty.

the Jews continued to be treated as an alien group, who had a lower status than citizens and non-citizen residents alike.

Due to the crowded and unsanitary conditions on the Judengasse most Jews had left the former ghetto during the 19th century and settled in the neighboring suburb, "Ostend".


It's pretty clear that your source isn't really discussing the Jews of the Ottoman empire as such, but the Jews in the Muslim world in general, and is mostly referring to areas that were either peripheral to the Ottoman empire, or not a part of it at all. Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries and cleaning cesspools was a common jewish occupation there. Was it because of their lower intelligence? Were the jews of Morocco, Iran etc congenitally low IQ because they did the dirty jobs?


Anyway, Jews often occupy jobs that the host population is unlikely to pursue(such as usury in Europe). I'm not sure what indication that could give of their intelligence. Many jews in czarist Russia were poor farmers living in villages. Were they congenitally stupid as you claim the blond christian russian serfs were?

[SQiTmhuY]

Apparently you have a fantasy of the jewish ghettos of Europe as being wealthy gated communities filled with rich money lenders or something. I do? You got all that from my questioning of your line of reasoning that: live in ghettos->poor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe

In 1565, Pope Paul IV created the Roman Ghetto and issued papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, forcing Jews to live in a specified area. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, owing to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was designated to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants. However, over the years, the Jewish community grew, which caused severe overcrowding. Since the area could not expand horizontally (the ghetto was surrounded by high walls), the Jews built vertical additions to their houses, which blocked the sun from reaching the already dank and narrow streets. Life in the Roman Ghetto was one of crushing poverty, due to the severe restrictions placed upon the professions that Jews were allowed to perform.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Judengasse

The Frankfurter Judengasse (from German: “Jews' Alley”) was the Jewish ghetto of Frankfurt and one of the earliest ghettos in Germany. It existed from 1462 until 1796 and was home to Germany's largest Jewish community in early modern times.

Initially, some 15 families with about 110 members lived in Frankfurt's Judengasse when they were forcibly removed from the city and relocated to the ghetto by decree of Frederick III in 1462. By the 16th century, the number of inhabitants rose to over 3,000, living in 195 houses.[2] The ghetto had one of the highest population densities in Europe. Contemporary documents described it as narrow, oppressive and dirty.

the Jews continued to be treated as an alien group, who had a lower status than citizens and non-citizen residents alike.

Due to the crowded and unsanitary conditions on the Judengasse most Jews had left the former ghetto during the 19th century and settled in the neighboring suburb, "Ostend". So, you found one example where Jews living in a ghetto were poor, and one example of a crowded, unsanitary ghetto. I'm sure that in your mind this proves something or other.

raq was part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries and cleaning cesspools was a common jewish occupation there. Was it because of their lower intelligence? Were the jews of Morocco, Iran etc congenitally low IQ because they did the dirty jobs? Firstly, no where in your sources does it claim that "cleaning cesspools" was a common practice. Many physics professors in the United States are Jewish, does this mean that a professor of physics is a common occupation for American Jews? This is pretty basic reasoning, mate. Secondly, you seem to be hung up on Jews doing dirty work, while in the real world, the did quite a bit more than just that:

Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti-Jewish incitement among the masses.

Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies. All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932. source

For 2,600 years the Jews of Iraq had dwelled successfully in the land of Babylon, achieving as much acceptance and financial success as a non-Muslim group could in an Islamic society that despised infidels. Iraqi Jews were well entrenched at all levels of farming, banking, commerce and the government bureaucracy. They virtually invented the modern Iraqi monetary and financial system after that nation emerged from the British mandate in 1932. Jews contributed vibrantly to the arts and were the heart of Iraq's international commerce.

Indeed, Jews were among the best-educated people in the country, and fiercely loyal to a land they had thrived in for millennia. As such, they were the wealthiest and most assimilated Jews in the Arab Middle East. In many ways they resembled the middle-class and affluent, entrenched Jews of Germany who felt more German than Jewish. Likewise, Iraqi Jews, universally anti-Zionist, believed they were more Iraqi than Jewish. source

Thirdly, no doubt it would be lost on you, but there should be made a distinction between jobs that were held in low regard because of cultural reasons(such as usury and butchery and the like), and jobs that were undesirable because they enabled for little economic or personal freedom(such as a serf, for example). Jews, being a distinct group from the host population, had the prerogative to completely disregard the social conventions in favor of a lucrative venture, simply because the social conventions did not apply to them.

Many jews in czarist Russia were poor farmers living in villages. Were they congenitally stupid as you claim the blond christian russian serfs were? Were did I claim that Russian serfs were stupid? Would you mind pointing it out?

[Ufkkrxcq]

So, you found one example where Jews living in a ghetto were poor, and one example of a crowded, unsanitary ghetto. I'm sure that in your mind this proves something or other.

I gave you examples, you on the other hand have yet to establish that ghetto jews occupied a high socio-economic status in Europe.

Firstly, no where in your sources does it claim that "cleaning cesspools" was a common practice. So dishonest. Here it is again: "the Jews of Islam tended to have “dirty” jobs (Lewis, 1984). These included such tasks as cleaning cesspools and drying the contents for use as fuel — a common Jewish occupation in Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and Central Asia."



Thirdly, no doubt it would be lost on you, but there should be made a distinction between jobs that were held in low regard because of cultural reasons(such as usury and butchery and the like), and jobs that were undesirable because they enabled for little economic or personal freedom(such as a serf, for example). What? Cleaning cesspools is a more desirable job than farming?


Were did I claim that Russian serfs were stupid? Would you mind pointing it out? You said the russian serfs probably were dumber than russian aristocrats being lower socio-economically. By that same token jews must also have been probably dumber than not just european aristocrats but also the european bourgeosie.

Yet the children of those russian serfs once freed by the communists became rocket scientists, and the children of those ghetto jews became nobel laureates once freed by the Enlightenment.

[fissasste]

I gave you examples, you on the other hand have yet to establish that ghetto jews occupied a high socio-economic status in Europe. I don't think I made such a claim?

So dishonest. Here it is again: "the Jews of Islam tended to have “dirty” jobs (Lewis, 1984). These included such tasks as cleaning cesspools and drying the contents for use as fuel — a common Jewish occupation in Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and Central Asia." Oh, so it does, apologies. I suppose that either your source has a different definition of "common" than my own, or that cleaning cesspools was much more profitable than I initially thought, and could support enough people to be considered common.

What? Cleaning cesspools is a more desirable job than farming? I don't know, that would depend on a lot of factors, I suppose?

You said the russian serfs probably were dumber than russian aristocrats being lower socio-economically. By that same token jews must also have been probably dumber than not just european aristocrats but also the european bourgeosie. It's a bit more complicated than "higher class smarter than lower class", it depends a lot on the fluidity of those classes, the desire of people to improve their position, and the role intelligence plays in that improvement.


Honestly, I'm not sure I can get anything from debating this with you further. You don't really seem to have a clear idea of what you're arguing. Either that or you're incapable of getting your point across clearly.

[HassFks]

I don't think I made such a claim?

Seems like you are incapable of thinking logically. Or you are just dishonest. You have been arguing against my point that ghetto jews as a people belonged to a low socio-economic class. So obviously you must believe that they belonged to a higher socio-economic class. Simple logic. Where is your evidence?


It's a bit more complicated than "higher class smarter than lower class", Of course it is. Only now you realize such an obvious fact? That is the point I have been making all along.

You don't really seem to have a clear idea of what you're arguing. Either that or you're incapable of getting your point across clearly .

I must be getting it across better than you since its you not me who has been cornered into changing his stance. And any idiot can see what my argument is and so do you since you have come around to it yourself. It all started with Gungnir's assertion that "it is more likely that people are in the lower-classes because they are less intelligent and not the other way around." You jumped in on his side of the debate but have now been forced to acknowledge that it is "more complicated" than the original assertion you were defending.

I think the problem with you is that you think you are smarter than you actually are and this vanity leads you to intellectual dishonesty when you run out of rational arguments.

[br`lorance]

Seems like you are incapable of thinking logically. Or you are just dishonest. You have been arguing against my point that ghetto jews as a people belonged to a low socio-economic class. So obviously you must believe that they belonged to a higher socio-economic class. Simple logic. Where is your evidence? ...I argued against your reasoning, which I made abundantly clear, but it seems you're incapable of grasping the difference. Oh well.

f course it is. Only now you realize such an obvious fact? That is the point I have been making all along. I have not the words.

I must be getting it across better than you since its you not me who has been cornered into changing his stance. And any idiot can see what my argument is and so do you since you have come around to it yourself. It all started with Gungnir's assertion that "it is more likely that people are in the lower-classes because they are less intelligent and not the other way around." You jumped in on his side of the debate but have now been forced to acknowledge that it is "more complicated" than the original assertion you were defending. ...it's pretty obvious that nobody made the assertion that higher class people are always smarter than lower class people. What you're arguing is "sometimes, in some extreme circumstances, that's not the case", no shit? He was acknowledging a general trend...and I didn't even defend his point as such(though I agree with it in general), you crazy person.

I think the problem with you is that you think you are smarter than you actually are and this vanity leads you to intellectual dishonesty when you run out of rational arguments. I think the problem with you is that your handlers clearly allot you too much computer time. Back to finger painting with you.

[Tyncneiff]

Well guess what, the winners have been announced and the top three are all non-asians. There are three east asians in the top ten. The kid who won, Evan O’Dorney, is really something special. He previously won a Gold Medal in the International Math Olympiad and the National Spelling Bee. He is only 17. And home schooled by his mom.

The top five and their pics:

1. Evan O’Dorney

2. Michelle Hackman

3. Matthew Miller

4. Madeleine Ball

5. Selena Li

Man, they need to get to the same person in order to win, we do not need the best of the year to do the best in next year understood? those tops are most frequent contestors, they means they are the best of the best of their population. While we can have different people each year and still win. Most winners from China do not want to take the test again because they need to focus on domestic tests which are much harder than IMO test.

[AbraroLib]

...it's pretty obvious that nobody made the assertion that higher class people are always smarter than lower class people. What you're arguing is "sometimes, in some extreme circumstances, that's not the case", no shit? He was acknowledging a general trend...and I didn't even defend his point as such(though I agree with it in general)

So much dishonesty and BS and you are stupid enough to think you can get away with it.

It is a clear cut lie to claim that I am arguing that "sometimes, in some extreme circumstances, that's not the case"; which would be the same as saying that I agree that generally it is true. As anyone with half a brain can see I obviously disagree that it is generally true and have been arguing against that very point all along. This is another fine example of your inability to think logically.


It is also a shameless lie for you to claim that you are not defending his point, even though you acknowledge that you agree with it. What the hell have you been doing then? What's telling is how you come up with laughable caveats and denials when the same general reasoning is applied to people of your own race/ethnicity. Thus according to you the gentile russian serfs fit the pattern vis a vis the russian aristocracy but ghetto jews do not vis a vis the european aristocracy (and bourgeosie) and cesspool cleaning jewish dhimmis do not vis a vis their muslim overlords in the Ummah! How pathetic of you to try to explain away the lowly status of many jews in the muslim world by imagining that "cleaning cesspools was much more profitable than I initially thought".