Very interesting indeed seeing Somali's thru a Somali pov.
Regarding self-identification in a ethno-racial/nationalistic sense, I'm going to take a guess:

-First and formost the family/sub-clan
-Then the clan and tribe
-Then perhaps Somali in the sense of nationality?

Regarding any Somali labels/descriptors that could be categorized as phenotypical/racial lables, I'd guess they use various terms for skin color/tone among themselves. They also probably have terms for either 'Bantu' people (non-Horner Sub-Saharan Africans), Arabs, and Europeans.
I'd also guess they may or may not develop or accept a Western 'black' identity until they migrate abroad to Europe & the US.
Any Somalis here are welcome to comment, expand, or correct any of my guesses.

You're correct...a sense of "Somaliness" is pretty new to Somalis, just like being an "Ethiopian" "Eritrean" or lol, "Djiboutian" are all new. In fact, due to the oral tradition of Somali history and the lack of an official written language until the 1970s, its pretty hard to find out when Somalis first started to see themselves as Somalis.

For instance, the first mention of the Hawiye was by the Arab historian and geographer, Ibn Sa'id as early as the 1200s, more than 2 centuries before the first time the word "Somali" was ever recorded anywhere...(in the lyrics of a war song composed for the Ethiopian emperor Yeshaq in 1415). To this day its unknown when the people of the Eastern Horn started to collectively identify themselves by the meta-ethnicity of "Somali", but my guess would be around the 14th-15th centuries. So basically relatively recent, but that is also around the time most of the so called clan patriarchs lived based on oral history...these patriarchs are: Irir Samaale for the Hawiye, Samaaronfor the Dir, Sheikh Ishaq bin Ahmed Al Hashimi for the Isaaq, Abdirahman bin Isma'il Al Jabarti for the Darod and Saab for the Rahanweyne. As you can tell by the names some have supposed Arabian origins (Isaaq and Darod) while others have quite archaic Somali names.

Somali nationalism like other African/Middle Eastern and Asian nationalism really only took hold in the 19th and 20th century.

The traditional racial descriptors (atleast in the south) that differentiate the two ethnic groups (Somali vs Bantu) was Jeleyc (soft) vs Jareer (hard) differentiating the soft haired Somalis from the kinky haired bantus. The other term used to denote Bantus is "Adoon" which means slave, referring to their origins. Somalis are a very discriminating people, as many SSA people who lurk at somali fora may have noticed, but like I previously stated, its not only against bantus that discrimination arises. Arabs were historically referred to as "Dheg Cas" or 'red eared' alluding to their light skin and I guess, cowardice since their ears turned red from fear...Ethiopians were refered to as Xabashi (Habesha) but more and more I come across the perjorative "Amxaaro" (Amhara) but also a homonym for shit/feces.

The term for Europeans/White people has a interesting history. There are two historical terms to describe European people (who Horners probably have come in contact with since antiquity with the Greco-Romans and their trading).l

the more common is "Gaalo" which is literally "Infidel/Pagans". The word Gaalo was originally used for the aboriginal, pre-Islamic thus pagan inhabitants of Somalia. The name stuck pejoratively for a long time to denote the Oromo, who to this day are derogatorily referred to as "Galla" by their neighbours. Once contact with Europeans during the colonial expansions, the word just seemed suitable to denote them, and no longer Oromos, who by comparison, didnt seem so alien anymore.

The second term historically used to describe Europeans was Ferenji, which was basically a borrowing from the Islamo-world's habit of describing alll Crusaders by the blanket term "Franks". I think this is the term used for Europeans to this day in Ethiopia.

The black indentity, as defined by US/Western Europeans, is it known to native Somali's? Does it come as a surprise or confusion when they migrate to the US/Europe and all of a sudden are labelled with this foreign racial label? I ask, because Horners are frequently mentioned in the middle of any debates about this socially defined racial label. I've also come across South Asians who live in England who perceive them as non-black but their own seperate category. And then there are others who group them all under the black label. I know that this is a potentially delicate question on this overly-sensitized/defensive forum. There is no wrong or right answer to this, it is what it is.

It really depends on individual cases/scenarios. For myself, I felt a natural inclination to identify myself as black, since afterall I hailed from a Sub Saharan African country, and sort of stumbled on a situation where I was one of the few Somali/Horner kids in the neighborhood. I did get a bit of slight pranking/joshing by my fellow Somalis since I looked particularly pseudo-Sri Lankan...and I did have Tamils constantly come up to me speaking their languages at me. One of my other siblings experienced the same. Keep in mind, this was in a neighborhood with little Horner presence. I also recall occasions where black kids and white kids would debate on whether I was black or paki, lol.

When in my tweens, I moved to a community with a larger Somali community, I noticed that there seemed to have been an automatic and easy identification, even cops would be like "race: Somalian" when dealing with them. With the insular nature of Somalis, there was a tendency to label them as distinct. Ofcourse, Black was interchangeable, and many times I was referred to as Black. Growing up in the 90s, most Somali youth fell into two distinct lifestyles: 'inner city gangsta wannabes, and super duper islamic robe wearing, beard growing and religious.

Middle easterners here dont see Somalis as black from my experience, which is why I find EliasAlucard's descriptions completely out of place. White people (im assuming now) usually see Somalis as some kind of Islamic adhering people from Africa, who are negroid, but different from the traditional negroid, and definitely more alien and less auspicious.

When I went to the States, I noticed a distinct change, where African Americans almost ALWAYS saw me as Black, (even AfrAm) and would refer to me as 'my brutha' etc. While Whites were more along the lines of 'You're brown' or some kind of Muslim'' as if its an ethnic/racial group.

Most Somalis see themselves as Somalis first, Muslims second...case in point, when in university I was a member both of the Muslim Students Association and the Association of Black Students. In the MSA there were several other Somali students, in the Association of Black Students I believe I was the only one.

Man, not to pat myself on the back or nothing but I must say my perceptions are not too far off the mark.
Your commentary on white people is exactly what I'd expect based on my personal experiences. This type of commentary can only come from people who are highly perceptive and have first hand real life experience with different groups and the highly nuanced fluidity with which they perceive and label one another. Too bad we can't send out Slick Willy as an 'embedded' reporter among different groups so that you can come back and give us a report on how it really goes down IRL. This forum is full of theorist who like to argue their pov based on their own Ivory Tower racial/racialist/ethnocentric while living in some relatively isolated areas.http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/laugh.gif

I know one thing for sure Dominicans (Jareers) have alot of Bantu blood and culture. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...s/evilgrin.gif

Anyway as a birdied once stated.....

Africans never identify themselves as Africans. They always use their nation and tribe to create identities with the tribe being the most important. I feel sorry for crackas and arabs who think they are african because they have lived there for long. They will never be accepted as Africans for as long as they are useful. They are only permitted to live there because they are of some use to the real natives. As soon as they are no longer useful, their asses will be kicked out.

Truth is, political identity does not make one an african. A ugandan or tanzanian has a way higher chance of becoming the president of kenya than a kenyan born white or hindu will ever have.

Thats reality in Africa.

Second, it appears as if most people view even the natives of Africa to be all Africans and are calling for unity along the lines of the european union.

Having spent some time with euros, the reality is that the european union is the biggest myth of all, Whites are not united. They can't even stand each other.

The nordics and scandinavians completely look down on the eastern europeans and the latin euros. The swedes appear to have a hatred for the latin euros. According to most swedes I have spoken too, the latin euros are

1. All liars.
2. Thiefs.

Europeans are united based on their fear of other races. They have a history of violence against other races and live in fear of retaliation. The funny thing is that alliances based on fear are some of the easiest to break. Most of these alliances are always as weak as the weakest link in a chain. In kenya where there are several european communities, I am suprised at how much they seem to hate each other. Especially the germans and the italians. These two cannot stand each other for some reasons I cannot fathom.

Africans, whoever they are, need to get real. There are only certain groups who can claim Africa as their home. These are,

1. Bantus
2. Khoisans.
3. Pygmies.
4. Sudanic/Nilotic/Nilosaharan cluster.
5. Cushites.
6. Berbers.

These are the only real natives of Africa. Yet even they don't consider themselves as brothers. Speaking for the bantu, I would say that the bantus consider themselves to be the real Africans.

Bantus view sudanics and nilotics as strange bantus with strange habits.

Bantus view cushites as black arabs.

Bantus view berbers as white arabs.

Hence, a unity among africans is just impossible. We need to stop copying the Europeans. Their union will soon unravel. It cannot survive. It is based on fear. All you have to do is make them paranoid of each other. Whites are very greedy and will betray their own to get what they want. They are not the most moral of the races. Thats partly the reason why the haitians were able to defeat them during the haitian revolution. The haitians mastered the art of turning the whites against each other such that for some time, the whites were fighting each other instead of fighting the haitians. Laughing

Sooner or later one of them will sell out based on greed to the asian nations. Hell, some countries like Sweden have no intention of joining the EU. As for the other nordic countries, they have only allowed the euro latins and the eastern europeans in so that they can exploit the cheap labour from these countries.

Let us divide Africa into 4 clusters.

1. Bantu
2. Sudanic/Nilotic/Nilosaharan.
3. berber
4. Cushite.

And let everybody do their own shit.

Speaking for the Bantus though. Do realize that unless you are one, you will never truly be seen as a native of a bantu country. Only as a foreigner. Now, you are allowed to come in and do stuff like trade etc. but land ownership is a no no. I have noticed that unlike Sudanics and Nilotics, bantus take land ownership very seriously. Only Bantus are allowed to own land in Bantuland. Otherwise, it is war.

Funny thing is that despite this, Bantu Africa is one of the most accepting of all Africa. You can find succesful ethnicities of all types in Bantu Africa compared to other parts of Africa where hatred and prejudice would prevent other ethnicities from making it big. - The Infamous Bantumoor

True, but being "Ethiopian" isn't so new. There's long been a concept, but it was intricately tied to being Christian until the modern (19th c.) period.


Yes, the term is "Ferenj" in Amharic (I think "Ferenji" in Tigrinya), which comes from "Frank" via Arabic.

Where was your experience? Because mine's generally been the opposite (with exceptions both ways). I've had my racial affiliations questioned more by Aframs than by white people.

This was in the Baltimore/Towson and Washington DC area...

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

Now I understand perfectly why Somalis can never have a united state.

Being Ethiopian is a new concept. Before Ethiopia existed, Abyssinia was confined to regions such as Amhara and Tigray region. Most regions such as Oromo/Afar/Somali/Harar regions identified themselves based on their ethnicity and religion, before the expansion of Christian Ethiopia. Even today, people in Ethiopia label each other by ethnicity more than ever.

Ethiopian sense is very strong in Christian community not the Muslim one. Half of Ethiopia is Muslim, so Ethiopia is a relative new concept in itself.

They were periphery Ethiopians long before the Expansion/re-incorporation ('Ager Maknat' in Amharic) lead by Emperor Menelik, most of those territories included in modern day Ethiopia were already paying tribute to the Ethiopian emperor, this included the sultans of Adal.

According to the CIA map of somali clans the order is as follow:

hawiyeh: 25%


isaaq 22%

darood 20%


the basis of this study is satellite image that reflect density population of regions inhabited by clans. Darood live on a large empty lands while isaaq live in a smaller region which over crowded. the same analogy could be used when comparing canada and china.

i was browsing some threads and i found this extremely hilarioushttp://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gifhttp://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif
but i do agree with some of the points.

^^ Narrow-minded, and typical Faarax.

There is no such thing as a "periphery Ethiopian". Just because two entities neighbour eachother does not make one a periphery version of the other. As for Adal, the Abyssinnia state and the Adal state would not have been in war for hundreds of years if Somali states were ""periphery Ethiopians". Indeed before the great Oromo migration Oromos were independent, seperate and distinct from Abyssinia. Abyssinia existed but Ethiopianism is a recent theoretical construct whose borders are a legacy of colonialism.

I still can't believe you claimed that Adal was "periphery Ethiopian" when it was an entity that was at war with Abyssinia and defeated them too, untill the Portuguese helped them. Read up on Ahmed Guray http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/laugh.gif

The Ethiopian Emperor Menelik's Somali expedition, consisting of an army of 11,000 men, made a deep push into the vicinity of Luuq in Somalia. However, his troops were soundly defeated by the Gobroon army, with only 200 soldiers returning alive. The Ethiopians subsequently refrained from further expeditions into the interior of Somalia http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/laugh.gif