Tamil's elderliness to world languages
 

Hello, Friends http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif And dearest foes!! How are you all http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...n_question.gif I regret for my unavailability and not participating in the debate in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit thread" for such a long time! I was held up with my project & some access problem one month back in the hub! And When I entered today I found the thread is closed http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

It is great pleasure to note that Mr.Aravindhan, Mr. Mahadevan & of course Mr. Idiappam and others have made the discussions alive without stagnation! Thanks a lot!

I may give my views after going through all the stuff placed there during my absence, then and there in my future posts.

Sir.Isac Newton found gravitational force. Albert Einsteen proved this force is not applicable to space. Einsteen is not against Newton but substantiated Newtons law with some more evidences. Stephen Hawking substantiated still more the Newtons law.We talk about Tamil's antiquity. Scholars of 1850s & 1930s formulated the base of world history telling originating from Tamil culture. They are substantiated by scholars of 1950s & 2000s with their new findings. The difference in their findings is due to subject matter and not their interpretations and it conforms the same. It is immaterial to reject findings based on time.

Alexander Grahambell found electricity from sky flash. He could not be able to make all the solutions for electricity http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif But Later Thomas Alva Edison made and substantially many scientists contributed for electricity http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif The horizon may vary. But the base of conclusion is same. Yesteryear scholars found some truth. Their horizon has some limitations. But present day scholars have substantiated and touched new horizons.

In both the above two cases there is no contradiction in findings but we find contributions made to each other with some more truths in vivid manner.

At the same time new fresh look into the same findings will give immortal truths http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif The interpretation should not change but deciphering should continue. This is what you call scientific analysis http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

Quoting scholar's decipherment is to support our views http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif Tarnishing his personality for his shortcomings does not serve anything and this kind treacherers' foolhardiness won't work! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif Paavanar's shortcomings in word's research have miraculously overcome by Mr.P.Aruli and this does not mean Aruli is contradictory to Pavanar but only means that he is complimentary.

Sankam is pure tamil word.Just pronouncing 'Chankam' as 'sankam' does not make that word as Sanskrit. 'Poosai' = Poo + sai means 'Do with flower'. By turning 'Poosai' into 'Pooja'/Poojai does not mean it is derived from Sanskrit Whereas Sanskrit does not have single meaning/synonym based on this word!One of our friend(Solomon & Ancheneyan are same http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif) played with Pakuthi/ Vikuthi (from false website) in the same way. I ask him to give some more Sanskrit words with this root which he cannot but in tamil we can.

Kazhakam, Koodal,Avaiyam,Aayam are synonyms for Sankam. The timeline of using this words may be different but they were all used with same meaning. There are lot of "oru porut kilavikal" (synonyms) in tamil. Tamil gave letters to those languages who don't have letters & tamil gave words to those languages who don't have words is the history! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

Let us go through the etymology of "Kazhakam" :

Ra-two types, La-three types in tamil is used to distinguish the meaning of words from same roots and fixed during Tholkappiar days. I have already given several examples regarding this.
Illustration : Maram-tree – root 'mara','maraththuppoe' – stand against something
Marram(vallina 'ra')- Veeram-Courage –root 'Mara'- a quality of stand against something. In the both the cases the core/root meaning is same but used for different things of different walks of life.

Readers can find the same type of pattern in Three types of 'La' also. After all pronounciation is natural man made and that is why so many languages in the world were formulated!

"Kazhakam"- root is 'Kala' (small la) which means 'mix'. Kalakkam,kalam, kalambakam,kalakam, kalar,kalavi,kalappai,kalai are some of the words from this root –all contains 'mix' as core meaning. Kal, Kalai have also meanings as mixture of various sands,reading various(mixture) knowledge, mixture of man/things and his emotions/nature and so on.

Kala is consonant starting word. It should have had vowel starting when originated naturally. i.e, 'Ala' only turned as 'Kala'(A,E,Uo suttu olikal are man's first language!)
Alakku,Alaikazhi,Alankaaram,Alanku,Alankolam,Alasu ,Alambal,Alavu,Ali(Mixture of Male & Female) are some of the words with 'Ala' root Which also have 'Mix' as core meaning.

'Kala'(middle la)- Kalam,Porkkalam – Mixing of two armies to fight each other, Nerkalam-Mixing of paddy from various fields, Kalaththiram-Wife- a lady mixing with his husband, Kali-Enjoy with all around & Kalai-a plant mixed with paddy are some of the words of this root having core meaning mixing.

Kazhakam(Big la)-an assembly of intellectuals. Kazhal-silampu- a mixture of pearls/diamonds.Kazhani-Field containing mud(mixture of carbonized plants & mud). Kazhi-a mixture of wastes.

For Tamil pandits it is customary that if they don't find some words in literary works they reject them as foreign words.They comfortably forget colloquial roots http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif 'Chaappiduthal'(eating) & 'Sirippu'(laughing),Vidayam(Vishayam)have never been used in sankam anthology/any other literary works. Is it correct to reject them as foreign words? http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...n_question.gif There are lot of words which have never been used in literary works. Hence it is illogical to conclude words etymology based on literary works http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

All world languages formulated their own words from the available roots of oldest language and it is conformly tamil since the earliest inscriptions of world only found in tamil and the earliest organized language is tamil. The roots of any word of any language can be hopefully explained by tamil!

I show one example. Malayalam never existed before 1000 years. It is a tamil dialect.When Portukeese came Kerala before 400 years they brought Tea seeds. Malayalees invented new word 'Chayam' representing the coloured substance.The same is Chaaya in north India. Here the root is tamil 'Chai' & Chai,Chayal, Chayai(Shade) are some of the words from this root representing 'replica'. Colour is also a replica of someshade in nature.

'Vedham' has root 'Vei' / Vae(nedil) means 'hide'. When there is no hidden thing due to light it is called 'Vei+el' –Veyyil, no hide-Sunlight. Vei (Otran-spy who hides and act), Veithal /Veivu–Hide (Koorai veithal), Veyul-Porvai(a blanket used while sleeping)are some of the words from this root. Sanskrit does not have single parallel words from this root! 'Vetha Viyasar' is a 'dravidian' as per fifth Vedham( message by 14 th century CE-Sri Villiputthoorar Bharatham) "Mahabarath"s terminology and he organized vedhas during 100-150 CE(AD) keeping in his mind about tamil's organized structure.

Hence instead of picking out Vedhic presence in Tamil, Vedhic protagonists should pick tamil elements in four Vedhas, 18 Puranas, two Ithikaasas & Akamaas! Without tamil's influence there is no Rig Vedha. Other three Vedhas contain original Vedhic Tradition except Rig Vedha which contains only tamil culture. This is not my view. I have already specified this in this thread quoting various scholars http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif There are 6 types of religions in India (Thiruvasakam). Vedhic tradition is one of them strenghthened by tamil Siva & Vinnava worship during 3rd & 4th century CE and during 7th & 8th century CE it attained its peak by Guptas dynasty (Thevanakari script also was invented by 8th Century CE)entered into tamil land during 6th century CE & got deterioration during Muslim invasion. In fact Tamil protected Vedhic traditions during Muslim rule.

Hindu- the word never exist anywhere in the above Vedhic traditions! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif Manikavasakar coined that word and after several centuries passed, during 9th & 10th century it went to Kashmir.

I quote from the book " The siva sutra-Vimarsini of Ksemaraja- translated into English by P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar, p-7.

From during the later period of 8th century ACE(period of VasuGupta who wrote comments for siva sutra) to 11th century ACE(period of abanava Gupta and Shamaraja- followers of VasuGupta) siva/Inthu religion called "Praththiya Pinknai"prevailed in Kashmir.

The same religion is called "elaku veesa paasu patham"in Koorchara kingdom.(ibid p.19) From then onwards "Hindu" the word has been used.

I could not avoid speaking about religions by virtue of it significance in Sanskrit history.


f.s.gandhi

To all participants of this thread: The earlier thread had been closed as it violated every stated guideline of this Forum. I hope this thread will not meet a similar fate. Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures.

If you do not agree to the views of other people, kindly make an intellectual arguement if the same is within your means. If not, kindly refrain from making any comments that would injure the sentiments of other people.

Hi Badri you said 'Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures'.

If the title is 'Tamil's elderliness to world languages' how can we refrain from comparing Tamil with other languages ?.

I completely understand that some times it gets nasty and we do need a semblence of decorum. But please do not say that comparing languages is completely banned http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...icon_smile.gif

Well Mahadevan, what it essentially means then is that there is no need for such a thread that seeks to compare. If Tamizh is great, it is great by its own right. It doesn't have to be proven great by comparing it with other languages. If one can feel proud of a language only by proving it is the greatest, the best, the oldest, that is like saying I am proud of my mother only if she is the most beautiful woman in the whole world!

This is not a Tamizh Forum. This is a forum frequented by people of all languages and cultures. Willy nilly, any comparison is bound to hurt the sentiments of other people.

Therefore, fortunately or unfortunately, such comparisons are completely banned.

Real pride is when a non-Tamil acknowledges the greatness of the language. Mere maar-thattudhal doesnt take you any where.

In fact, this constant obsession on Tamil being the best, oldest, etc will create an opposite effect among non-Tamils.

All I can say is, please dont destroy the good name of Tamil in your earnestness to flaunt its greatness.

There many ways to skin! That's his way. Mine is different!

Vinaythogai (for past, present and future tence), Is it some thing unique to Tamil ?

Dear Moderators http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

I assure you that unwanted boasting shall be avoided in this thread. We shall discuss about world history and its origin based on scholars presentation.

I put the topic name in such a way to make every hubber participating in the discussion with enthusiasm.

Hubbers of different opinions may ask for more explanations with friendly way and if they still not satisfied they can politely express their disapproval.

This is not propogation against any language. I want to portray some truths.

By the by, Mr. Mahadevan, 'Vinaithokai' is unique feature in tamil poetry. Not only that. "Anikal" & Yappu are also special feature in tamil.

Some of the poetrical pattern of tamil has been adapted later period in sanskrit. For example, 'Pirathi Petham' in sanskrit was adapted from tamil 'padiyakuthal'. It means Some poetries pattern shall be repeated with same set of words to give various meaning.

In tamil, Thirumoolar Thirumanthiram contains this pattern. In Sanskrit Pathanchali Munivar followed this pattern in 'Ayur Vedham'

f.s.gandhi

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT SAUDI ARABIA

Those historiens and researchers who did research in West Asian countries calls a country as "SEA LAND". Babyloniens(3000 BC), Asirians(1500 BC) & Persians(1000 BC) ruled this country. Egyptians called this country as "GOD LAND".

Dr. Raymond Philip Dougherty is one of the historiens did research on "SEA LAND" which is nothing but present Saudi Arabia situated west of Persian Gulf.

Mr. Raymond did his research to pick up more evidences for Greek civilizations but ended up with Dravidian/Tamil culture http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif . We know always that this sort of conclusion shall be the result obtained by many scholars about tamilian civilization http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif . Actually they don't carry out their research with tamil as base. But accidentally they find out tamil base eventually http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

Tamils "PORUNAI VALLEY CIVILIZATION" invented Madpaandam(Mud urns),Chakkaram(Wheel for traveling and Urn making) & Marakkalam(Ship for Sea travel & trade). Any ancient society research should accompany tamil as base otherwise they shall be "blind in big forest"-making no fruitful conclusion.

An another historien Sir.Arthur Geeth says : North Arabians are Chemiththian & Cacasians mixture.South Arabians are Half cacasians & half Dravidians.

An abstract from Mr. Raymond book, "THE SEALAND OF ANCIENT ARABIA", New Haven, Yale University.

"During 3500 BC Saudi Arabia land was under sea. Slowly it came out. That is why it was called as sea land.During 3000 BC "Kaltheya"( in Asirian language- Old Arabic-means country of stones- in tamil 'Kaltheyam') & Elam(means sun- tamil 'ellam'-suriyan). This sealand's East border is 'Thilmun'(present Bahrain- means 'Top point'-tamil 'thilmunai'). Kasayas-a segment of Kaltheya people- called this land as "karthuniyash"(means a land shore that came out- tamil 'karai thunithal'-karai uyarnthu Ezhuthal). Sea land's East border is Egypt(Gulf of 'Suyaz').

A district called "pant"(Tamil pandyar) was there as main trade centre. Foreigners/Dravidians were main traders. Precious stones,Gold,Silver,Sandal trees,Teak woods,perfumes were imported. Special teak wood specifies it came from present Kerala(Old pandyan kingdom). Mr. Ferrosias(historien) says Eden Garden of Bible was there in 'Thilmun'(Thilmunai-present Bahrain). The archeology proves this.

"Eridu"(means red- Tamil Eri means Reddish) was the city-head quarters for Sea Land. land. The first king name is 'Alulin'(means Alaza-wave in Arabic-tamil 'Alaiyan' like 'Thirayan').

A book called "JUPILIS" informs Persian Gulf as 'Erithiri'(means red sea-In Greek also Red Sea- tamil Eri thirai –Eri-red,thirai-Sea)

Bible Abraham's(Tamil Aayar kone) Birth place was "Oor" (Tamil Oor) in kaltheya.

Present Red Sea was not there during 3500 BC When southern part of Arabia was under Sea. It was as Gulf of Erithiri. When Arabia came out during 3000 BC present Red Sea was formulated. This is recorded as story in Old Testament -Bible. When land is created by God's grace 'Isralieans" escaped from Egypt through this land is story. Story might be imaginative. But the essence is archeologically proved. Exactly during this time the first "KADAL KOL"(Sea disaster) happened in Kumari kandam.

Half fish-Half man-ONUS Story prevailed in Gulf countries and Sumeria. A man from sea Spread culture & arts and gave language to these countries is the story. This conforms a sea man (tamils were sea farrers) shall be Dravidian/tamils.The pandyas have 'Meen'-fish as symbol. (H.R.Hall –a sinthu valley expert & V.R.Ramachandra Deekshidar-historien also conforms this- he says in these story two direct tamil words are found. One is 'Neer': another one is 'Meen': Remained were shrinked form of tamil)

During 1800 BC Sea land was under control of "Cemiththian"(means reddish people-tamil Chem/Chev means reddish). Arabia- name came from 'Aram'(means Reddish- tamil aram,araththam means red). Cuniform(Wedge shaped) (in tamil Kooni/Koompu/Aappu structure) Inscriptions showed king's entire dynasty and all are found to be Dravidian origin/tamil.

A foreign god(Dravidian) called 'Eya/Eyakki'(tamil eyakki amman/esakki amman) was worshipped.Horses were called as 'Purimo'(tamil parima)"

From this we come to know that first seeds of civilization were spread by tamils in Gulf countries.That is why Frederick Engeles called 'Kumari kandam'(elamuria) as "CRADLE OF WORLD CIVILIZATIONS" http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

We shall see more.

f.s.gandhi

Dear Friends,

I noted many intricacies-if they are negative zoomed to very higher proportions by Vedhic protagonists in the discussions & one of such is sinthu valley seals reading.

In the case of Sinthu Valley Seals Dr.Mathivanan did excellent work and dechipered out all the 4000 seals. To curb the truth, North Indian scholars who don't want tamil's base tell some variations which can be explained by even a layman. The purpose of their hidden agenda is well known.

1. Left to Right Writing : First of all, All the historiens accept till date Sinthu Valley contains only Dravidian Culture. If Culture is Dravidian Why not language? Mr. Iravadham Mahadevan tried his best through tamil to prove it is Dravidian. One mistake he has done is reading Right to Left. He could not dechiper out all the symbols convincingly. Still he maintains his belief. When all the languages of India is written Left to Right and if we want to prove the sinthu valley script to be Indian origin it is logical to read Left to Right only. And not Right to Left which is insisted by western scholars thinking that Asirian origin.

All Indian scholars accept Left to Right reading denouncing the opposite reading by proving potteri graffti followed all over India which is the direct derivation of Sinthu valley script..From Potteri graffti Tamil Brahmi was evolved. Right to left / Left to Right is not at all the problem but reading should be convincing & acceptable. Tamil Brahmi also has undergone many changes in course of time.Dr. Mathivanan displayed the gradual turn of Brahmi script through Biscript seals which is most convincing method ever done. This is further supported by Dr. Gurumurthy's exibits of gradual development of potteri graffti from Sinthu Valley script.We can not find Indian origin without Left to Right reading! Dr. Mathivanan's dechiperment gets accreditation by many world Universities! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif

(See. Sinthu Veli Ezhuthin Thiravukole – By Dr. Mathivanan)

2. Forty pictures have been assigned by Dr.Mathivanan with single syllable

Mr.Mathivanan made forty syllables! Other Indian Scholars made 500 and more. When there is more 'oru porut kilavikal'(synonyms) for one word and one root formed many words in tamil and having different meaning why can't we fix one syllable for different words of different situation http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...n_question.gif

I give an illustration for this. 'Ari' is one syllable used for many words and its meanings are arisi, Kathir, Tahadu,pone,malai,maalai,pal, parai,seed, singam, teeth and so on specifying sharprness in nature. If all this things are represented in pictorial way as in sinthu valley the only way to dechiper out is by fixing same syllables for many pictures. And Mr. Mathivaanan has done based on synonyms. This is completely acceptable.

When Neil Armstrong landed in Moon Some persons even scholars questioned its truth! Many still do not believe this since they don't know scientific logical sequence of happenings! The same is the case of Vedhic protagonists due to their hidden agenda!We need not go to the entire details and intricacies of any dechipherment. The outcome of research is enough. The derivation & interpretations should be evaluated logically and scientifically. This shall be the order of any history/archeological research.

When we want to go to the complete intricacies of dechiperment we have to apply statistical techniques. This is called probability theory.Positive probables and negative probables shall be put in frequency distribution and central tendency shall be measured. The slight variations & large variations shall be plotted (Frequency distribution). Central tendency(Towards actual result/Actual result) shall be measured. This is the best scientific method if we find slight variations in our dechiperment. Western scholars do this.

Wrong propaganda and zooming it bigger way won't sustain & survive long.

f.s.gandhi

Deepawali what is the origin of the word ? It sound very much like Tamil.

Deepam+aavaLi I've learnt in the deepaavali thread in misc section.
a row of light it means i came across.

the chinese lantern festival?

We are celebrating Deepavali Two times http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...on_exclaim.gif One as per "Narahaasura" Story. Other one is 'Kaarthikai Theepam'. Kaarthikai Theepam is specified as "Vilakkeetu Varisai" in Silapathikaaram and that is actual Theepavali for tamil. Festival is to thank "Varunan"(Vari means Sea-Sea God) for rain.This is tamil festival.

This was adapted in North India as a prayer to Lord Varuna. Later this came into being in Tamil Nadu with Narahaasura story.

'Thee' is root of Theebam. Theevam turned Deepam since 'v' is normally pronounced 'B' in north India as in 'Vaali-Baali'. One of the meanings of "Ali" is 'make it in series'-varisaip paduththu.

f.s.gandhi

the english word 'cash' is from tamil word kasu according to dictionary.com, how about 'money' , money is nothing but a medium of exchange, even before the discovery of metal we did trade on non-barterer system, what was functioning the role of money ?
It is highly that 'pearls/beads', muthu/mani was used as medium of exchange, because they were functioning the role of gold/silver in the pre gold/silver era by their limited availability.
Is Tamil 'mani', the medium of exchange in ancient India the root for 'Money' ?

May I ask the author of this topic what he is trying to prove, that one language is older or better than another one? Their origin is completely different..

Thank you.

Very simple for the citizen of The Land of The Aryans where ever it may be: YES!
As long as you can not disprove it!

And by the way what language they are capable of in The Land of The Aryans?

Very simple for the citizen of The Land of The Aryans where ever it may be: YES!
As long as you can not disprove it!

And by the way what language they are capable of in The Land of The Aryans? I don`t quite understand the sarcasm of this post... I did address my question to the author of the topic...
Have I tried to disprove anything? I don`t think so, please read my post one more time & i`m sure you `ll understand its meaning.

As for you question - When you want to ask something next time i suggest you to be more polite. I doubt you are familiar with the Aryan language (to be more correct with what is left of it), but you are free to write in Tamil.

What is that polight our holy highness from The Land of The Aryans where and what ever it may be? Will you please educate this poor non Aryan if you don't mind hitting on the keyboard once again?
Are you familiar with that Aryan language "(to be more correct with what is left of it)"? And if that Aryan Language is rudimental as you say then your understanding of the mother of all Languages will be impossible for you too!

Am I you holy highness(?) please don`t call me names.

Will you please educate this poor non Aryan but you are free to continue to define yourselff as you wish. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...icon_smile.gif
Will you please.. Problems? Sorry, i can`t help you, not a doctor http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...icon_smile.gif
Are you ..? Your unhealthy interest in my persona begins to scare me http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo.../icon_wink.gif ,
"rudimental"? where did you find this word? http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...n_confused.gif
And one more time, my question was not for you, so if you are looking for someone to have a little cat fight i suggest you find someone...well, you know! Have nice day! http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo.../icon_wink.gif Didn't my Aryan beauty queen ordered me to be polight?
That word rudimental I found while I was on my way to conquer Rome. But when I arrived there I found Rome in pieces - rudiments. Just like your Aryan Language in pieces.