[M4tHkBw2]

Before jumping straight to the question... Hi!

... I suck at introductions.


An ikkyu kendoka (7 yrs. in kendo) who couldn't find a dojo anywhere sanely close to campus has been training in the gym. He offered to teach basics to anyone who wanted to learn. Interest sparked! Hurrah! I'm still just starting and I tried to use the interwebs to look up how to properly perform a men strike - not because I doubt the kendoka, but because there are nine hojillion ways to teach someone the same punch; I figure it's true for sword strikes too and new perspective is always good. Lo and behold, I fall into a kendo vs kenjutsu thread here.

What little experience I've had with hand to hand has, in passing, convinced me that I really, really don't give a half a damn what style performs better at any given arbitrary task. Even when the task is something as possible as getting in a fist fight; I especially don't care when it's as outlandish as killing someone with a sword. However, the thread (and similar ones) did raise some questions. My concerns stem from a peculiar aesthetic, rather than combat application, though.

How easy/difficult is it to:
a) switch from learning one style to another?
b) integrate different styles of handling the same weapon?

I'm uncertain whether it's appropriate to apply my assumptions from unarmed styles for the first question. However, I would hazard that learning a new style would be facilitated by whatever overlaps exist, as long as you're self-aware enough to resist the urge to let idiosyncratic aspects of your original style dominate your approach to learning.

The second question sounds kind of like: can I learn iaido, battoujutsu, kenjutsu, and kendo and then create super-duper-beat-em-up-kill-people ryu. To clarify, I'm curious if you can train concurrently in two different styles without significantly retarding your growth. Although, if my assumptions about the answer to the first question are right, I would ask how much more time would need to be devoted to training to avoid said learning issues.

The reason I ask is that I'll probably be relocating within the year and the presence of a good dojo will factor in where I settle down. I'm trying to figure out whether to continue kendo or whether to switch to iaijutsu, though it would be nice to be able to take up both (if there exists some ungodly intersection of good dojos and good work). Though, since this desire is predicated upon my inability to reconcile a potentially fallcious disparity between the two, if anyone has light to shed on the matter, I'd appreciate it.

To appropriate a turn of phrase from another thread (I've forgotten the author, sorry!), kendo appeals to me because it is a derivative of swordplay which now bears more resemblance to a complex game than a killing art. It presents, at least to me, a vitality born from excising practices solely predicated on killing, while still schooling people in the use of one of our oldest and most important (be that good or bad) tools. By contrast, iaijutsu appears more static in that it has preserved the lethal intent and efficacy of its techniques, despite the fact that killing power no longer constitutes a useful attribute or metric for desirability. More static, because these techniques cannot evolve as they used to, because the sword has been set aside. However, whether it is the cause or the effect of maintaining such lethality, iaijutsu seems appealing because it maintains a powerful sense of completeness in terms of the use of blades when they were at their prime. Which is not to say that I believe iaijutsu is the be-all end-all of Japanese swordsmanship. Rather, I feel that it's odd to train as a swordsman without knowing fully how to use a sword. As I said, killing power is no longer the primary concern, but even something as simple as the practice of beginning and ending with the blade in the saya seems like a valuable thing to learn.

To put myself at risk of oversimplying, I think my last questions would be: How can you learn to use a sword and ignore so much of its historical significance that you don't know how to draw and resheathe it? and; Why only learn swordsmanship that kills when swordsmanship that does not seems to be thriving?

Anyway, I'm late for class, so that's my excuse if I managed to still make a horrible gaffe despite typing out so much. Please correct me if I'm looking at any of these questions wrong (likely).

[ZX3URrBH]

synergistic/detrimental impact is an oxymoron. I'm unsure of your question, perhaps someone else from the forum will be able to help you. However, something that is synergistic does not cause harm; likewise, something that is detrimental does not offer support.

Good luck to finding your answers & welcome to the forum.

[Pszinygv]

Before jumping straight to the question... Hi!

Welcome to the forums!

An ikkyu kendoka (7 yrs. in kendo) who couldn't find a dojo anywhere sanely close to campus has been training in the gym. He offered to teach basics to anyone who wanted to learn.

You may be interested to learn that many Kendo practitioners would feel that the rank of Ikkyu isn't sufficient enough grade to teach others proper basics.
If you are really interested in Kendo, if you tell us what part of the world you are living, we could probably recommend several legitimate Kendo Dojos closest to you.

Interest sparked! Hurrah! I'm still just starting and I tried to use the interwebs to look up how to properly perform a men strike - not because I doubt the kendoka, but because there are nine hojillion ways to teach someone the same punch;

While officially the actual targets in a Men point are limited, most Kenshi would say that there definitely a right and a wrong way to hit the Men.

What little experience I've had with hand to hand has, in passing, convinced me that I really, really don't give a half a damn what style performs better at any given arbitrary task. Even when the task is something as possible as getting in a fist fight; I especially don't care when it's as outlandish as killing someone with a sword. However, the thread (and similar ones) did raise some questions. My concerns stem from a peculiar aesthetic, rather than combat application, though.

I cannot speak on Kenjutsu, Kendo can be very beautiful, although most people who do not know what to look for may see it as a couple of people with sticks smacking each other.
But there is definitely such a thing a dazzlingly beautiful Kendo.
As far as combat application, whether or not Kendo is a useful Martial Art in the sense of practical application is a matter of debate depending on whom you ask.

How easy/difficult is it to:
a) switch from learning one style to another?
b) integrate different styles of handling the same weapon?

My personal opinion after a lifetime of various martial art study is;
Kendo is unlike anything you may have previously encountered.

I'm uncertain whether it's appropriate to apply my assumptions from unarmed styles for the first question. However, I would hazard that learning a new style would be facilitated by whatever overlaps exist, as long as you're self-aware enough to resist the urge to let idiosyncratic aspects of your original style dominate your approach to learning.

I agree with you. It's always best to have the "emtpy cup" mentality when undertaking anything new. easier said than done of course.

The second question sounds kind of like: can I learn iaido, battoujutsu, kenjutsu, and kendo and then create super-duper-beat-em-up-kill-people ryu. To clarify, I'm curious if you can train concurrently in two different styles without significantly retarding your growth. Although, if my assumptions about the answer to the first question are right, I would ask how much more time would need to be devoted to training to avoid said learning issues.

When you ask people who do Kendo why they study Kendo, almost all of them will report that it is the mental and self-cultivating aspects of Kendo that they receive the most benefit from. I'm afraid Kendo isn't at all about learning how to kill people, unless you mean to Kill the devils within you.

To appropriate a turn of phrase from another thread (I've forgotten the author, sorry!), kendo appeals to me because it is a derivative of swordplay which now bears more resemblance to a complex game than a killing art.

I have been told that when to very experienced Kenshi meet for Keiko, it is not unlike a chess game.

Rather, I feel that it's odd to train as a swordsman without knowing fully how to use a sword. As I said, killing power is no longer the primary concern, but even something as simple as the practice of beginning and ending with the blade in the saya seems like a valuable thing to learn.

Many Kenshi train in Iai, and many Iaidoka train in Kendo. It is felt that on many levels, the two distinct arts can be very highly complimentary to one another.

To put myself at risk of oversimplying, I think my last questions would be: How can you learn to use a sword and ignore so much of its historical significance that you don't know how to draw and resheathe it? and; Why only learn swordsmanship that kills when swordsmanship that does not seems to be thriving?

Please allow me to answer the Kendo portion of the question by displaying the purpose of Kendo:

The Purposes of Practicing Kendo

To mold the mind and body

To cultivate a vigorous spirit through correct and rigorous training.

To strive for improvement in the art of kendo

To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor

To pursue the cultivation of oneself and associate with others with sincerity and respect

This will enable oneself to love one's country and society, contribute to the
development of culture, and promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.


You'll note that there's nothing in there about learning how to hurt or kill other people with a sword. I assume that Iai and Kenjutsu have similar philosophies.


Good luck to you.

[MidwestMadman]

As succinctly as I can...

Kendo evolved to not have any particular "style" or "flavour" so that swordsmen from different ryuha could test themselves on a kind of level playing field. Having said that, it does have a basis of Itto Ryu influenced technique (the big up-down, furikaburi style cutting action is the main influence). Fairly easy to find.

Iaido, that is the All Japan Kendo Federation Seitei Gata (standard forms) which is what 95% of people start with, was also devised to be a fairly neutral starting point that could lead into more in depth study of koryu iaido at a later date. Almost as easy to find as kendo.

So in terms of kendo and iaido, the answer to your first question is: they are a bit like a VISA card, you can be pretty sure they will be the same wherever you go, so what you have learned will be accepted (IF you have had a reputable teacher).

Then you have gendai kenjutsu and iaido, which are modern (less than 150 years old) styles that have been devised as new schools. Most of the schools that call what they do "battojutsu/battodo" fit into this category. Depends what happens to be near you. Not so widespread, but probably as common outside Japan as inside.

Then you get koryu iaido, which is usually MJER (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu) or MSR (Muso Shinden Ryu). There is also Suio Ryu, Hoki Ryu, Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and Mugai Ryu that all share the same ancestor, Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu. Probably more common than gendai sword schools, but you won't have your pick of these schools either. However they have traveled quite well outside Japan.

Finally there are the sogo bujutsu schools which either pre-date Hayashizaki sama, or developed from a separate root. These are the comprehensive schools that have not just solo iai, but also paired forms in a variety of weapons and even unarmed techniques. This group includes Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, TSKSR (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu), Tatsumi Ryu, Jigen Ryu, Itto Ryu (various branches), Takeuchi Ryu, etc, etc, etc. A good place to go for more info is here. This is where you will also find out more about the perils and benefits of training in more than one koryu at the same time. These are also the rarest and most hard to find. Less than a generation ago you had to go to Japan for nearly all of them. Now a few lucky people outside Japan may find reputable and qualified teachers near them: usually foreigners like Miek and Di Skoss who have trained for 20+ years in Japan and now are resettled in their home country.

Oh, and then there's jodo...

b

PS - welcome to Kendo-World!

[qQVXpYM6]

. . .I have been told that when to very experienced Kenshi meet for Keiko, it is not unlike a chess game. . .

Chess with hitting.

[nilliraq]

Well, I'm a noob in both kendo and iaido, so if the two get in eachother's way, they should be doing so with me. My experience with doing both is that they can get in eachother's way a little until you start getting a feel for the difference, but more than not they compliment eachother well. I think it helps to have a tiny bit of exprience in one (maybe a year?) before starting the other, so you can be more sure on the basics of at least one (the footwork is slightly different, for example, and learning both at once would be very confusing).

As for the ability to combine them: were I to end up in a situation where I was using a sword in combat (of course I wouldn't) I sure as hell wouldn't be using either exlusively, but I'm sure I could really create an effective combination either.

As for why some people only train in one: As has been said, most people who do kendo or iaido don't do it to be super effective with a sword, there's just no need. So really, it wouldn't make too much sense to do both if your reason for training didn't require it and you didn't find one of them enjoyable.

[gusunsuth]

Err. I suppose I should have just type ' or ' instead of '/'

I'm aware of their meanings, I was curious which was the general opinion.

You may be interested to learn that many Kendo practitioners would feel that the rank of Ikkyu isn't sufficient enough grade to teach others proper basics.
If you are really interested in Kendo, if you tell us what part of the world you are living, we could probably recommend several legitimate Kendo Dojos closest to you. Ah, bad assumption on my part, from when I trained Shotokan. I'm near Baltimore, but I am vehicle-less at present. I'll take a look at the dojo sub-forum, though. I may be able to convince a friend who's interested in joining. He can do the driving. ^^

Apparently, the rush did result in a few syntactical snafus. My clarification on the practicality of concurrent training was meant to indicate that I explicitly did not want to do so just to try and synthesize them for kill factor. Rather, I like both the game nature of kendo and the completeness of iaijutsu/iaido. Not complete in terms of lethality, but in terms of having greater connection to the historical context of the weapon - ie. the iaito being drawn and returned to saya and learning to draw as part of a reaction, etc.

Thank you for the input. Especially the delineation of difference from kendo to koryu and the link.

[Piediahef]

Ew. Double post. No edits after five minutes? Tomfoolery!

Thanks, neko. Staggering start dates makes sense.

[Gcromqgb]

Woo Hoo! Debate with Kenzan time!!!! Sorry GalGallin....this is just a little fun for me while I give you my thoughts. Kenzan and I just finished a rather lengthy debate and I'm trying to get him back into one again

My personal opinion after a lifetime of various martial art study is;
Kendo is unlike anything you may have previously encountered.

I really have to disagree with this one. The reason I started and stay in kendo is because it feels very much like free sparring in karate to me. You have two people standing off against each other trying to force the other person to make a mistake. You'll note that Kenzan said he's heard kendo can be compared with chess. I've heard the same analogy from my karate sensei. The method of fighting is superficial, it's the mental idea that's important.

I agree with you. It's always best to have the "emtpy cup" mentality when undertaking anything new. easier said than done of course. I'd say more of an open mind is necessary. When I started kendo I related the movements back to other arts I do and found some things similar and some things were different but my experience definately helped me. Again, it goes back to the point of you're not fighting the persons sword or their fists, you're fighting their mind.

When you ask people who do Kendo why they study Kendo, almost all of them will report that it is the mental and self-cultivating aspects of Kendo that they receive the most benefit from. I'm afraid Kendo isn't at all about learning how to kill people, unless you mean to Kill the devils within you. Agreed, it you're in this to learn to kill people with a sword we have some wonderful threads in the flames section you may wish to look at.

Many Kenshi train in Iai, and many Iaidoka train in Kendo. It is felt that on many levels, the two distinct arts can be very highly complimentary to one another. Again, I agree. But don't expect that just because you do iaido/jutsu that you're going to understand how swords were used to kill people. Single person forms are nice but you have to put yourself infront of another person and ask how you would put it into practice. It's a nice mental exercise and I recommend trying it but again, if your purpose is to learn to fight people with actual swords proceed immediately to the flames section and have a read.

One last point. I wouldn't suggest starting two arts at exactly the same time. That will probably mess you up. Each art tends to exaggerate certain movements and when you're first starting it can cause you permenant drain bramage as you bash your noggin off the wall trying to do both. Pick one then after a couple years go looking for another.

[suingincentix]

Hi and welcome!

I am currently training in aikido, kendo and i am a newbyish newby newb at iai.

I keep it in my head that for the time being, kendo and aikido are my 2 principal arts simply because i have dedicated "a lot" of time to them. Iai, i am doing to "fill in the blanks" so to speak.

You should establish firm foundations in your kendo before moving to iai / kenjutsu or vice versa. Otherwise it will make you retarded... i mean, retard your progress.


The important thing is to enjoy what it is you do. Contrary to popular belief, a guy with 7 years experience is probably good enough to teach you kihon.. but him still being ikkyu is a little weird. I mean, i'm ikkyu and i'm rubbish although it has been known for me to teach the newbs so i can't be hypocritical here.

Enjoy the journey!

[Asianunta]

In an ideal situation, ikkyus probably shouldn't be teaching, but I've yet to find an ideal situation. The dude's looked for a proper dojo, couldn't find one, so decided to start teaching people basics. Respect to him. It's not like he's setting up his own dojo and claiming to be anything other than what he is.

I agree that starting more than one at the same time might be confusing...I'd been doing kendo for 2 years or so when I started messing around with iai, still messed with my head. It's like kendo, but it's not. :s

[loikrso]

can I learn iaido, battoujutsu, kenjutsu, and kendo and then create super-duper-beat-em-up-kill-people ryu.

not really. the problem is that none of these things really have a goal of learning how to kill people anymore. so there is no such synergy between them.

when you do two things, you'll get better in whatever ways they overlap. this is a problem if the overlap is not representative of what you are trying to do. for example, if you are trying to be good with a shinai, as opposed to good with a sword -- granted, that is not the right attitude, but bear with me a moment -- then practice with a bokkuto or iaito is not going to offer a lot of technical benefit. on the other hand, if you are trying to be good with a sword, as opposed to a shinai, you'll probably benefit from picking up something that is like a sword from time to time.

of course, many people will tell you that kendo is not really about becoming good with either a sword or a shinai, and so the question of overlap with things like iaido -- or tea ceremony, for that matter -- is more nuanced than it first appears.

if you really want to have a "super-duper-beat-em-up-kill-people ryu," i think you'd be better off studying something like boxing and similar sorts of activities that do have a goal of actually injuring people. i do not believe that any japanese sword art is about that anymore.