[kasandrasikl]

Well I am back in UK after my most recent trip to Thailand. One unexpected experience this time was my participation in an anti goverment (more specifically anti Thaksin) rally at Suan Lumphini.

My original intention had been to cut through the park to the Night Bazaar, but arrived at the time the demonstration was leaving for Government House. I became caught up in the crowds which were many many more than I had been led to believe by the press reports of similar demonstrations over the few weeks prior to my trip.

Of course there didnt seem to be any other farang there so we became a bit of an attraction, with many people asking us to march with them. At first I just wanted to find a way through the crowds to reach the Night Bazaar and have Som tam and rice and listen to live Thai music. Then I got in a converstaion with a Thai guy, he was surprised that I was aware of the political situation in Thailand and that I spoke Thai. He was a business man (like most of the demonstrators from middle class) and we had a fascinating chat about the reasons for the unrest. Before I knew it, I was waving a flag and happily marching (more of a slow stroll) alongside the crowd to the obvious delight of all around.

Was it stupid? ... I guess so.
Did it feel stupid at the time? .... No
Would my contibution make a difference? ... Nope but raised a few laughs and smiles
Do I regret it? .... absolutely no, it is one of those images that are burnt forever on our minds.

Pics to follow on my website.

[vladekad]

No comment.

You are braver than I. I am certain being part of something like this, no matter how much I would enjoy it, would interfere with my retirement comfort. The pictures I am anxious to see though. I discuss Thai politics with the students here, but am scared to do or say anything in Thailand. Besides the farang have enough of a reputation for never being satisfied, I wouldn't prove it further true by protesting and complaining about a government that is not mine.

The situation is different outside Thailand though. Outside Thailand farang don't know or care about Thai government. I am curious about how many people were involved in the protest? What was the average age? Male to female ratio? Social class? I mean middle class, or low class? Just curious and probably details that will be on your website soon enough. If so I can check there if you prefer.

[dittygari]

I personally don't care what the Thai Government is doing, that to me is not my business, so long as it does not interfere with my life, even though like every one I have both negative and positive opinions to different Thai policies. I support every ones democratic right to protest, so long as it is none violent, so I believe you did the right thing for your self, whether or not it is good or bad polices is not my concern.

[kasandrasikl]

igotno said Outside Thailand farang don't know or care about Thai government. I am curious about how many people were involved in the protest? What was the average age? Male to female ratio? Social class? I mean middle class, or low class? You would be surprised to know that many farang do care about Thai politics..... I am not alone in having family living in Thailand while being stuck in euorope for work reasons. The government of Thailand make decisions that have a direct impact on my family and my business interests, not me alone but I have many friends that are affected too.

The protest was much much bigger than i had imagined from reading the press reports in recent weeks ... but I can only guess... maybe as big as a premier football game in UK ..... no idea really 20,000 people or 5,000 I only know it was bigger than I imagined from press reports.

I am curious about how many people were involved in the protest? What was the average age? Male to female ratio? Social class? I mean middle class, or low class? male to female 50/50 social class from the people I talk to definitely middle to upper class. that is why they demonstrate on friday .. they finish work as lawyers, surgeons, media people etc

from what i could gather the main objections are to do with the alleged corruption and the allegations surrounding the advantages Thaksin family members have gained.

I must state that I do follow the Thai political situation very closely and my decision to join this protest wasnt done on a whim but rather for me it was an opportunity as a farang to make a small protest against a government that I think has lost its way.

[kasandrasikl]

igotnos posted would interfere with my retirement comfort maybe Im missing something, but retirement visa is only available at age 50 plus???

[Khurlxgq]

Perhaps Guava, you ought to trek over to Sanam Luang on 4 February.

PM enemy No#1, a certain Mr Sonthi has promisied a rally so huge that it will dismantle Mr Thaksin.

I dont really think the authorities in power are gonna take the sight of a few Farangs at an anti-govt rally that....seriously. They would probably think he hadn't a clue about politics and was only there for the free sticky rice, grilled chicken and Beer Chang!!

[ChrisGoldstein]

I do have my own ideas on politics in Thailand and same as anyone, I do not agree with some of them.

But even tho I do live here and my wife and I do own property and my wife is a gov't employee, we can not say much about what we think,,it would not be healthy for her and it is not my place to say and do much as I am considered a GUEST here, altho as a guest, I must pay my own way and do things the gov't way to be able to stay here..

This country is considered a democratic form of gov't, but not as free as the gov't in the USA where illegal as well as legal residents can raise a bunch of XXXX about how the things are done.

Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good as we are not allowed to vote, and thats where democratic problems are supposed to be taken care of,At the polling places and ballot boxes,, rallys just raise the public awareness of such necessities.

[vladekad]

many farang do care about Thai politics..... I am not alone in having family living in Thailand while being stuck in euorope for work reasons...

You totally misunderstood my point. Sure there are thousands that do care. I even follow politics very closely in Thailand. But for the farang that live all around you or me they are much more concerned with the price of petro, calling Tony Blair or George Bush names, or even just material pursuits. No matter their interests, when you mention Thai government, most will reply with 'They speak Chinese in Taiwan don't they?'

By a sheer measurement of numbers I meant that outside of Thailand nobody is interested in Thai politics. Ask the world over which leader of Iraq is going through a trial, most of the world would at least know a name. Ask the world who Thaksin is and only a very small percentage would know who he is by name.

By retirement comfort, I never mentioned a retirement visa, I am too young for that. I simply meant my overall comfort, and FaranginPhetch is exactly on the same line of thought with me on this one and he summed it up very nicely in his last paragraph...

"Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good"

That stuff it will bring down is what I am scared of.

[RotsLoado]

Umm the word "scared " came up , I think, twice by gotno. That just gotme thinking about governments and communities where people do disappear in the middle of the night. The power of the spoken word or being in the wrong place at the wrong moment of time can change your life forever.
BTW , maybe it has something to do about the term LAND OF SMILES.

[kasandrasikl]

Too many farang at a political rally will surely bring down more stuff than most of us need or want and will do no real good I dont actually recall seeing any other farang at the rally although there may have been some. As I stated in my OP I had not planned on becoming involved and for the most part I agree with the points raised by FaranginPhetch, having said that I feel pleased that I had the opportunity and experience.

[TainuibeFaimb]

My personal opinion is that, as guests in the kingdom, it is impolite at best to interfere in the internal politics of Thailand. Having avoided colonization and outright domination by western states, I applaud the ability of Thais to manage their own future.

[ZwHRoTTn]

Guava, these are really interesting experiences, thanks for sharing them with us. If nothing else, you got some unique memories, a nice change from the boring "I-went-to-Thailand-and-saw-the-Grand Palace" routine. :/

Glad you got back safely! I saw in TV that these Sondhi-initiated demonstrations can turn out to be quite violent, actually. One time, even the head agitator himself fled the yellow-shirt crowd, after the anti-Thaksin frenzy got out of control at the PM's house. (I believe it was on Children's day). Lucky you didn't get swept in THAT crowd!

Despite the possible dangers of getting caught in the political fluctuation of a developing country, I don't see any reason why foreigners shouldn't take part of shaping the country they chose to live in. Everyone even vaguely familiar with Thailand's history can name foreigners who, once given political power, had a profound positive impact on the country. Below is just one example.

I assume that informed readers here are familiar with the name Constantine Phaulkon. "The Greek", as he was called, reached Thai shores as an assistant gunner on a merchant ship in seventeenth-century Siam. He then became "First Counsellor", Prime Minister, essentially King Narai's right-hand man, the second-most influential man in Thailand. A foreigner.

Siam survived the rough colonial times; it's an unfortunate and false assumption that she did it all by herself, without the help of outsiders. Foreigners like Phaulkon played an essential role in preserving Thailand's independence, helping her navigate safely away from the greed of powerful Western nations. Without such people, Thailand wouldn't be what it is today.

If King Narai, a man who King Rama IV himself called "the most distinguished of all Siamese rulers", deemed foreigners to be suitable to take up the most powerful political role in Siam, who are the rest of us to say otherwise? We can safely presume that a supreme ruler of Thailand knows her needs better than some Farang outsiders.

[ChrisGoldstein]

What you say might be correct alright, But a bunch of farang rooting and demonstrating for Toxins Removal from govt is not a thing that I see as very smart or even an accepted way to act when you are here on a Visa.

The present govt or even some of the Royal family do not really like farangs all that much, and being invited to join the govt. is a long way from foreigners demonstrating in public for govt. change.
Public demonstrations is something I can not see as very acceptable to those in power.

So if a bunch of you are taken from a demonstration and deported with a black mark,,so be it, I am the last that will be there raising hell about it.

[vladekad]

Guava I bet that made it feel even more strange that there were not many other farangs there if any. Thta would be kinda cool, just the idea that you may have been the only farang there, and the location of that being the case is what makes it even seem kinda cool to me.

FaranginPhetch that was specifically what I was talking about, being asked to leave or not even asked, just being put on the list without me knowing it. Imagine going for a simple visa renewal and being detained and asked to leave the kingdom never to return. Do they need a reason? Not at all. So why would I press my limits, especially in the sensitive political realm? It is far easier to use the anonymous nature of the internet for some things in my opinion. Safer anyway.

I am not one to be critical of Thailand as a whole. Maybe the politics, but certainly not the history. I think SiamJai gave a hidden reply to the statement by Vision. Very cryptic! LOL

I don't agree about the concept of Thailand never being colonized though. Maybe the French have never colonized, or the British have never colonized her, but consider the definition of colonization.

Colonization - the act or process of establishing control over a country or area by a more powerful and often distant country.

Pizza Hut, McDonald's, KFC, Orange Mobile, hell even the conept of the malls and materialism. Materialism and the 'need it now' attitude have colonized Thailand and the epidemic is rampant through out all of her major cities and tourist areas. So to say they have stood firm in avoiding being conquered by outside countries and their ways of life is to be in complete denial of how off-track Thailand has become in pursuit of happiness, wealth and the sense of 'keeping ahead of the Jones'.

[ChrisGoldstein]

Yea, That and being more or less a friend under Japan rule during the second world war is a form of colonization I would think..

But I just saw on the news where toxin sold SHINN com.corp. and his poor little daughter that had to work in Mc Donalds last year came out with 400 mil. baht, and his son made 600 mil baht on the sale,,so I guess she won't have to work at Micky Dee no more.

but from what I hear, now he won't have to pay taxes on it..

[vladekad]

LOL that always makes me laugh. Most Americans don't know that we actually at war with Thailand during WWII. After Pearl Harbor, Thailand was instructed by Japan to declare war on the US and they did. Their embassy in Washington DC was simply afraid to make the statement public, and before anyone realized it Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastated.

I am sure that after seeing what happened in Japan that ambassador was grateful he had kept his mouth shut and disobeyed his superiors. It would surely have to be considered colonization to some degree. The definition I gave above certainly falls into line with what happened in the 1940's, Japan gave an order and Thailand complied. That is a rulership from a far nation > colonization.

No matter if the language and taxes were or were not forced upon them. Even the close ties to the British 130 years ago would have to be considered borderline I would think.

[verybigf]

LOL that always makes me laugh. Most Americans don't know that we actually at war with Thailand during WWII. After Pearl Harbor, Thailand was instructed by Japan to declare war on the US and they did. Their embassy in Washington DC was simply afraid to make the statement public, and before anyone realized it Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastated.

Hey, they guys working on the bomb were smart, but it was almost four years after Pearl Harbour!

I really should check the timeline, but my impression was that within a month or so after Pearl Harbour the Japanese had occupied most of SE Asia. Apart from the technicality (?) of the war declaration, it's not clear to me what the Thai government did that was very different from, say, the French government during German occupation.

I'm slightly puzzled by some of the talk here about what constitutes colonization. To me there appears to be a substantial difference between the British Empire running the "pink bits on the map", like India or Malaya (or New Zealand!) and "close relations" with Thailand.

I don't really want to get into a discussion about modern "multinational colonization" except to say that it applies also to "developed" countries such as my own.

[vladekad]

I don't really want to get into a discussion about modern "multinational colonization" except to say that it applies also to "developed" countries such as my own.

Yes it does and even my country has been overtaken by this rulership. But away from that and back to your question on my reasoning. Correct it is not much different from the French during the German occupation. However the difference is the French have nothing to hide and do not deny that they were taken by the third reich. The difference however is that Thailand denies that they were ever colonized. They may not have been invaded, but their country was not always their own even through modern history such as Japan and WWII.

Colonization, my point all along, does not have to mean that the name of country changes and it's people change. It does not mean that there will be thousands of immigrants moving in either. You may call it close relations, but relations so close that one obeys the other constitutes colonization. That does not even include the more modern concept of colonization. After all which concept would be easier for the Thai's to digest?

• Thailand used slave labor of allied forces to build a bridge for the Japanese, killing thousands upon thousands in the cruel and unusual treatment of the allied prisoners of war. Thailand should have been held responsible for her actions.
• Or simply, Thailand was colonized by Japan during the war and Japan treated the POW's so badly that some died when they were forced into slave labor with terrible conditions and lack of human compassion.

Because in reality the Japanese at the time had quite a reputation for their treatment of slaves. What happened between Konkuita and Kanchanaburi was actually very commonplace treatment for slaves of Japan. I wouldn't think that Thailand would want the reputation that Japan held. Just because there were no maps produced saying that it was a Japanese territory, does not mean it was not given orders from Japan, and those orders followed, thus as the definition above says: Colonization - the act or process of establishing control over a country or area by a more powerful and often distant country.

[TainuibeFaimb]

I assume that informed readers here are familiar with the difference between a Royal invitation and interfering without any official invitation. No matter how long one resides in the Kingdom, unless one applies for and receives Thai nationality, one is still merely a guest.

[TainuibeFaimb]

I make a distinction between wartime occupation and colonization. Although the Germans, Italians, and Japanese occupied many countries during the war, they reverted back after the war ended. Vietnam was a French colony and, after the war, the French wanted to reclaim their former colony. This effort met with strong resistance and now Vietnam again belongs to the Vietnamese people. To me, this is the real distinction; ownership versus occupation.