I'm with Neil on this subject. suburi/hayasuburi is not only for increasing circulation and warming up the arms, but also (more importantly) for developing the correct kensen/sword path and loosening and relaxing the shoulders. In fact, I know some senseis who make a point of doing a lot so as to make the students have to stop flexing shoulders and arms (after all, they can't when they're fatigued). If form were improved by hitting the opponent, everyone would start doing bogu practice from the beginning.

One thing that I'd like to add is that it does oftentimes help to have a "target". I have seen many beginners doing hayasuburi in the air and therefore having to make their own decisions as to how hard to strike down and when to pull up. If hayasuburi is done with a partner receiving with a shinai (holding the shinai horizontally with both hands), I've seen that it gives beginners a better sense of datotsu by being able to relax the shoulders and bounce the shinai on the target.

I was a piano performance major in college.

Your example is ludicrous, but YES, both beginning piano students and advanced piano students DO many repetitions of scales (usually they don't start with C major, it's actually one of the more difficult scales fingering-wise)

In college I would usually do Each major and minor scale in eighth, triplet, and sixteenth-note patterns. That's 24 scales 3 times, so 72 scales. that was part of my warmup. Now consider that the eighth note pattern is 4 octaves (two up, two down) the triplet is 6, and the 16th note is 8, that gives us... 18 octaves per scale times 24 different scales.

So a total of 432 octaves. 216 ascending, 216 descending. Depending on the tempo I was taking, that could take anywhere from about 8-16 minutes.

Of course a beginning student wouldn't do all the scales or such a wide range at such fast speeds, but I would ask a beginning student to spend at least 5 minutes out of each 30 minute practice time doing scales.

The point of these scales is twofold. First, you practice the basics so that you can perform them without thinking when you encounter them in the real spiel. Scale passages are common in all piano music, and when I see one I don't even have to think about it anymore.

Secondly, practicing scales like that adds to your general strength, flexibility, speed, and endurance of piano playing, which aids you at all times.

The same thing equates to suburi. Or bump drills in volleyball, or line drills in basketball. Repetition of the basic skills makes using them in the whole picture that much easier and improves your all around facility at that skill.

My question for you is... why do you think you know how to teach this art better than the masters who have been teaching it for hundreds of years?

hahahah. yeah hongs, i remember going to your dojo all the time and doing all that stuff. i am not able to make it to practice early enough to do the warm-up excercises, so i'm not sure how many they do. like how everyone else said here: it's qaulity and not quantity. i practiced at a dojo in hawaii in september and they really stressed form and footwork. it was one of the best practices i ever had. i do however believe that repetition is extremely important as long as you do each one correctly. one of the biggest problems at my dojo is that beginners with and without bogu try to swing really fast and do fancy moves. of course it pretty much ruins any good form they had, and all those months of practicing basics goes down the drain. anyways, back to the subject. i believe going into the triple digits for warm-ups is not a good idea, BUT for conditioning and ESPECIALLY punishment 400, 500 hayasuburi is juuust right. heck why not do 1000?

Normally, we'd do about 150-200 suburi (including 30 hayasuburi). We don't do them fast, but we do them correctly (our senpai gets really mad if we mess up) and powerfully. I couldn't imagine doing hayasuburi in the 1000s....

I don't have anything original to add on this subject. I just want to say that I enjoy very much reading the posts from the teaching senseis on this forum, no matter the subject. They add a very different and thoughtful perspective to discussions here. And you know their opinions are backed up by years of instruction. Reading those messages have definitely deepened my understanding of kendo. THanks to all of the senseis who take the time to post here.

my kendo class spends a lot of time warming up and streaches. i wish we could spend more time doing other things, but any way i cant blame my teacher for doing that at all

So much for the iaido approach hu?

We do alot of suburi (sometimes to fast), but when we do our endurance suburi, its really more about not quitting, and giving in to yourself. This is good for the spirit...alot like kakarigeiko in some ways. I agree completely with the form over speed theme though, it drives me up the wall watching students swinging all over trying to keep up...

How many does your dojo do for warm ups?
 

The "jumping strike muhri" is actually called "pparun muhri" (hayasuburi in japanese). we do anywhere between 150-200.

I used to be a heavy smoker untill I started kendo. Once I got bogu, I though I was going to die. Whoops... this has nothing to do with suburi. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ies/normal.gif

Here's the suburi schedule for my dojo...

Naname suburi-30
Jogei suburi-30
Katate (men) suburi-20
Shomen suburi-30
Kirikaeshi suburi (aka sayumen suburi)-30
Hayasuburi-50
More if the overall kiai isn't strong enough...

We did okuriashi foward and backward the length of the dojo more than we did suburi.

It's very difficult to do thousands of suburi and do them correctly. Eventually everyone is just raising their arms up and down and trying to get to the end, it's a waste of time. We rarely do more than 100 of anything. For hayasuburi lately I've been having them do 30, but in only 3 breaths (10 to each breath). That's tough enough.

For warmups, If I lead.. If we do, heres what I usually do.

Ashi-sabaki (diag, foward-back, side to side)

Jougen suburi - 20

Back-forward men - 30-40

Yoko-men - 30-40

Hayasuburi - 20, 30, then last 10...

If time permits,

squatting suburi - 30

"the cross" - Suburi going forward, back, right left. (right left doing sayuu men)
i usually do like 30.

so Id say from totalling everything up, 140-220 swings. One time though we did 500 suburi for warmups...

For "cooldowns", we sometimes go through "quick" conditioning drills. Or it can be as simple as one good set of kirikaeshi at the end..

Moocow has a point that our sensei likes to stress.. You can do as many suburi as you want, but if you do 750 wrong, it is much worse than doing 50-100 swings correctly. Id much rather build on 50 correct suburi than struggle through 1000.

Tim

Sometimes we do 10 haya suburi per person in a circle..it's okay at the beginning when there's 10 ppl, but wen warm up starts more ppl start joining the circle...sometimes we do 150 haya suburi, might sound heaps, but everyone cud do it, I have energy to spare to about 200. I remembered doing 50 really fast haya suburi in the dojo, I coudldn't bend my wrist for a few weeks after that...something went wrong, but our normal is 100 hs, but we have to finish and cut at the same time...if not..30 more..and 30 more...and 30 more...until we get it right

Sounds like where I used to practice. I couldn't imagine doing all that hayasuburi. Sounds like a good way to ruin the tendons in your wrist.

That's just not true. Form is greatly improved by swinging in the air properly. If I take a beginner and immediately ask him to hit a target, I guarantee you it will take half of forever to get his swing right, if ever. The focus immediately becomes the target, not the correct swing. Our beginners hit nothing for several weeks. We don't do constant suburi though. More like swing for 10 or 20, stop, correct, explain a different point, swing another 10 or 20, switch exercises.

the question should be, "do they do the exercises correctly?" if they are unable to do the excercises correctly, then you're probably doing too many.

moocow65...If you want to try 1000, go to Kendo summer camp up in North Cal next summer. Ota sensei always comes and makes 1000 suburi a part of one days warmup. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...cross_eyed.gif

My club in my school, we usually do about 100 men, 100 kote, 50 to 100 do, and about 100 hayasuburi, sometimes 150 hayasuburi, 50 slower, 100 faster. Then we do other evil suburi exercises too sometimes, if I'm the one leading, hehe. I would say we do from 300-500 every practice. Is that a lot?

Well, like anything, it just takes practice and time. I try to do at least 1000 choyaku suburi maybe once a month or so. During regular practice, it's more like 200-300 with everyone else in parts so no-one is half-assing it from being tired.