Gekken - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**soSldI4i** · 11-10-2007, 07:57 PM

So I was reading an old Kendo vs Kenjutsu topic and someone mentioned kenjutsu sparring, gekken they called it. So how is gekken done like they where bogu and extra protectors because there are alot of kenjutsu targets. They use shinai? Is it like Shiai or ji keiko. Are there like throws or sweeps with legs. and what koryu practice Gekken. Any info in gekken would interest me alot. thanks!

**Menierofe** · 11-10-2007, 08:16 PM

We have lots here in the forums. Use the main search function.

**dmoiknlasd** · 11-10-2007, 08:22 PM

We practice gekken at our dojo, which was taught to us by Hataya Mitsuo sensei of Toyama Ryu. We learn kenjutsu waza with bokken and then we use these foam swords for the actual gekken, not the flippy whippy chambara foam swords, but these are solid and a bit heavier than bokken. We wear just head gear. You can do anything. Any kamae, cut any direction, any target. While I was in Japan, I witnessed Hataya sensei get into tsuba zeriai, and do a move where the opponent ended up on the floor stomach down, and with hataya sensei resting his knee on the guys elbow and poking him with the gekken sword saying...."itai nah?" Hope this helps......

**lapInsalm** · 11-10-2007, 08:31 PM

SangWooKim, just out of curiosity, where did you find these foam swords? Also, do you have any videos of this sort of practise? I've never heard of anything quite like it before.

**Uplillacype** · 11-10-2007, 08:50 PM

oh, i got those as a gift from Hataya sensei before I left japan this June. Don't have any video, but maybe we'll video a session one day. You can see some video at http://www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cu....html#taikai29 just go down to 28th all battodo tournament (2004/11) where it says it introduces sensei introduces soft swords etc.....

**aideriimibion** · 11-11-2007, 12:55 PM

We practice gekken at our dojo, which was taught to us by Hataya Mitsuo sensei of Toyama Ryu. We learn kenjutsu waza with bokken and then we use these foam swords for the actual gekken, not the flippy whippy chambara foam swords, but these are solid and a bit heavier than bokken. We wear just head gear. You can do anything. Any kamae, cut any direction, any target. While I was in Japan, I witnessed Hataya sensei get into tsuba zeriai, and do a move where the opponent ended up on the floor stomach down, and with hataya sensei resting his knee on the guys elbow and poking him with the gekken sword saying...."itai nah?" Hope this helps......

wow thats awesome!

**isogeople** · 11-11-2007, 04:21 PM

You also should search the swordart forums on e-budo and also put up a thread on the swordarts forum, there too. A lot of legitimate kenjutsu and Iaidoka are on that forum. They'll have information on this too. The only thing I know is that gekken is really dangerous because koryu waza are killing strikes. There isn't full on sparring because of this, with real weapons, of course. But, you might find out if they do anything similar, controlled, that is, on that forum. See if you can PM Dr. Karl Friday on E-budo. He's a Kashima Shin-Ryu kenjutsu sensei and he's also a very well known historian on Japanese history. He ought to know a lot about this. His user name on E-budo is Karl Friday. I have read a lot of his posts and wow, does he know a LOT!! Oh yeah. Kashima Shin-Ryu use fukuru shinai to do their paired kata. That's leather covered shinai. I saw them on a show about Samurai once, and he and a student of his demonstrated some of it. He did a nice take down on his student. They don't wear bogu. But, it's not full on sparring. I can't explain it, and I don't know the name of what they were doing. But, I do know it was very fascinating.

So, I don't know how much this helps-I don't know very much other than that on it, and I don't even know if that bit was even worth much, but I hope you are able to find more info on it.

Kaoru

**Ayyfjicg** · 11-13-2007, 12:52 PM

I dont know if this video is was showing gekken but on the kendo part the zanshin was way to wierd some times. Maybe its mc dojo or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJg_N4DaKlU

**kranfid** · 11-13-2007, 02:44 PM

Guys, "gekken" does not exist.

**Yfclciak** · 11-13-2007, 02:48 PM

I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu.

**Elelaytet** · 11-13-2007, 02:49 PM

Kashima Shin-Ryu use fukuru shinai to do their paired kata. That's leather covered shinai.
Kaoru

Fukuro Shinai

**CoenceLomneedtrue** · 11-13-2007, 02:54 PM

I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu.

Ever heard it used outside of a historical context?

Fukuro Shinai

Fukuro jinai is ok too.

**zilsolley3** · 11-13-2007, 02:55 PM

I dont know if this video is was showing gekken but on the kendo part the zanshin was way to wierd some times. Maybe its mc dojo or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJg_N4DaKlU

Looks McDojo to me. I didn't get through half of it without laughing at it.

That's just "kendo" sparring and not kenjutsu in the least.

Kaoru

**caseferter** · 11-13-2007, 03:02 PM

I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu.

No, it isn't.

Fukuro Shinai

Thank you very much!

Fukuro jinai is ok too.

What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one?
Thanks.

Kaoru

**eljugadordepoquer** · 11-13-2007, 03:05 PM

Ever heard it used outside of a historical context?

No. It sounds very archaic.

**brorwargy** · 11-13-2007, 03:08 PM

What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one?

Thats the way Japanese works.

People who use them for practise generally just call them "shinai" anyway. No fukuro bit.

No. It sounds very archaic.

Yup.

**harriettvanders** · 11-13-2007, 03:14 PM

What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one?
Thanks.

Kaoru

They are, crazy Nihongo grammar rules meant to confound and infuriate Westerners, what else?

Sake becomes Zake
Sushi to Zushi
Keiko to Geiko

Bukuro to Fukuro...etc..etc..ad-nauseum.
But I'm not sure why that is.

Anyone?

**addifttiest** · 11-13-2007, 03:49 PM

They are, crazy Nihongo grammar rules meant to confound and infuriate Westerners, what else?

Sake becomes Zake
Sushi to Zushi
Keiko to Geiko

Bukuro to Fukuro...etc..etc..ad-nauseum.
But I'm not sure why that is.

Anyone?

I've noticed the change makes the word easier to say. Take Kanagawa (the prefecture) for example. If you read the kanji normally it would read Kanakawa. Not as smooth flowing as -gawa.

Example 2 Kote and Degote. Try and say Dekote and Degote one after the other and pick the easier one to say.

My two yen.....

**gimffnfabaykal** · 11-13-2007, 05:28 PM

oh, i got those as a gift from Hataya sensei before I left japan this June. Don't have any video, but maybe we'll video a session one day. You can see some video at http://www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cu....html#taikai29 just go down to 28th all battodo tournament (2004/11) where it says it introduces sensei introduces soft swords etc.....

As a fun and occasional addition to training, excellent.

From a technique POV, truly awful.

b

**HoqCBYMl** · 11-13-2007, 07:34 PM

It is what it is. and yes I agree that it's just additional training. It's quite hard to do pretty waza when you're receiving a full swing. The difference between the action flex swords and the ones in the videos i showed is that they don't flex, and they're quite heavy. Either way, everyone trains different but why criticize without trying first?

11-10-2007, 07:57 PM	#1
soSldI4i Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 475 Senior Member	Gekken So I was reading an old Kendo vs Kenjutsu topic and someone mentioned kenjutsu sparring, gekken they called it. So how is gekken done like they where bogu and extra protectors because there are alot of kenjutsu targets. They use shinai? Is it like Shiai or ji keiko. Are there like throws or sweeps with legs. and what koryu practice Gekken. Any info in gekken would interest me alot. thanks! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-10-2007, 08:16 PM	#2
Menierofe Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 415 Senior Member	We have lots here in the forums. Use the main search function. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-10-2007, 08:22 PM	#3
dmoiknlasd Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 516 Senior Member	We practice gekken at our dojo, which was taught to us by Hataya Mitsuo sensei of Toyama Ryu. We learn kenjutsu waza with bokken and then we use these foam swords for the actual gekken, not the flippy whippy chambara foam swords, but these are solid and a bit heavier than bokken. We wear just head gear. You can do anything. Any kamae, cut any direction, any target. While I was in Japan, I witnessed Hataya sensei get into tsuba zeriai, and do a move where the opponent ended up on the floor stomach down, and with hataya sensei resting his knee on the guys elbow and poking him with the gekken sword saying...."itai nah?" Hope this helps...... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-10-2007, 08:31 PM	#4
lapInsalm Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 409 Senior Member	SangWooKim, just out of curiosity, where did you find these foam swords? Also, do you have any videos of this sort of practise? I've never heard of anything quite like it before. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-10-2007, 08:50 PM	#5
Uplillacype Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 492 Senior Member	oh, i got those as a gift from Hataya sensei before I left japan this June. Don't have any video, but maybe we'll video a session one day. You can see some video at http://www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cu....html#taikai29 just go down to 28th all battodo tournament (2004/11) where it says it introduces sensei introduces soft swords etc..... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-11-2007, 12:55 PM	#6
aideriimibion Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 432 Senior Member	We practice gekken at our dojo, which was taught to us by Hataya Mitsuo sensei of Toyama Ryu. We learn kenjutsu waza with bokken and then we use these foam swords for the actual gekken, not the flippy whippy chambara foam swords, but these are solid and a bit heavier than bokken. We wear just head gear. You can do anything. Any kamae, cut any direction, any target. While I was in Japan, I witnessed Hataya sensei get into tsuba zeriai, and do a move where the opponent ended up on the floor stomach down, and with hataya sensei resting his knee on the guys elbow and poking him with the gekken sword saying...."itai nah?" Hope this helps...... wow thats awesome! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-11-2007, 04:21 PM	#7
isogeople Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 476 Senior Member	You also should search the swordart forums on e-budo and also put up a thread on the swordarts forum, there too. A lot of legitimate kenjutsu and Iaidoka are on that forum. They'll have information on this too. The only thing I know is that gekken is really dangerous because koryu waza are killing strikes. There isn't full on sparring because of this, with real weapons, of course. But, you might find out if they do anything similar, controlled, that is, on that forum. See if you can PM Dr. Karl Friday on E-budo. He's a Kashima Shin-Ryu kenjutsu sensei and he's also a very well known historian on Japanese history. He ought to know a lot about this. His user name on E-budo is Karl Friday. I have read a lot of his posts and wow, does he know a LOT!! Oh yeah. Kashima Shin-Ryu use fukuru shinai to do their paired kata. That's leather covered shinai. I saw them on a show about Samurai once, and he and a student of his demonstrated some of it. He did a nice take down on his student. They don't wear bogu. But, it's not full on sparring. I can't explain it, and I don't know the name of what they were doing. But, I do know it was very fascinating. So, I don't know how much this helps-I don't know very much other than that on it, and I don't even know if that bit was even worth much, but I hope you are able to find more info on it. Kaoru Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 12:52 PM	#8
Ayyfjicg Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 432 Senior Member	I dont know if this video is was showing gekken but on the kendo part the zanshin was way to wierd some times. Maybe its mc dojo or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJg_N4DaKlU Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 02:44 PM	#9
kranfid Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 531 Senior Member	Guys, "gekken" does not exist. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 02:48 PM	#10
Yfclciak Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 490 Senior Member	I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 02:49 PM	#11
Elelaytet Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 609 Senior Member	Kashima Shin-Ryu use fukuru shinai to do their paired kata. That's leather covered shinai. Kaoru Fukuro Shinai Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 02:54 PM	#12
CoenceLomneedtrue Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 514 Senior Member	I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu. Ever heard it used outside of a historical context? Fukuro Shinai Fukuro jinai is ok too. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 02:55 PM	#13
zilsolley3 Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 446 Senior Member	I dont know if this video is was showing gekken but on the kendo part the zanshin was way to wierd some times. Maybe its mc dojo or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJg_N4DaKlU Looks McDojo to me. I didn't get through half of it without laughing at it. That's just "kendo" sparring and not kenjutsu in the least. Kaoru Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 03:02 PM	#14
caseferter Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 415 Senior Member	I thought gekken/gekiken was just another word for kenjutsu. No, it isn't. Fukuro Shinai Thank you very much! Fukuro jinai is ok too. What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one? Thanks. Kaoru Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 03:05 PM	#15
eljugadordepoquer Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 439 Senior Member	Ever heard it used outside of a historical context? No. It sounds very archaic. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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11-13-2007, 03:08 PM	#16
brorwargy Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 457 Senior Member	What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one? Thats the way Japanese works. People who use them for practise generally just call them "shinai" anyway. No fukuro bit. No. It sounds very archaic. Yup. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 03:14 PM	#17
harriettvanders Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 458 Senior Member	What's the difference between the two? So, why　じ　instead of し? And, why would one write either one? Thanks. Kaoru They are, crazy Nihongo grammar rules meant to confound and infuriate Westerners, what else? Sake becomes Zake Sushi to Zushi Keiko to Geiko Bukuro to Fukuro...etc..etc..ad-nauseum. But I'm not sure why that is. Anyone? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 03:49 PM	#18
addifttiest Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 464 Senior Member	They are, crazy Nihongo grammar rules meant to confound and infuriate Westerners, what else? Sake becomes Zake Sushi to Zushi Keiko to Geiko Bukuro to Fukuro...etc..etc..ad-nauseum. But I'm not sure why that is. Anyone? I've noticed the change makes the word easier to say. Take Kanagawa (the prefecture) for example. If you read the kanji normally it would read Kanakawa. Not as smooth flowing as -gawa. Example 2 Kote and Degote. Try and say Dekote and Degote one after the other and pick the easier one to say. My two yen..... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 05:28 PM	#19
gimffnfabaykal Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	oh, i got those as a gift from Hataya sensei before I left japan this June. Don't have any video, but maybe we'll video a session one day. You can see some video at http://www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cu....html#taikai29 just go down to 28th all battodo tournament (2004/11) where it says it introduces sensei introduces soft swords etc..... As a fun and occasional addition to training, excellent. From a technique POV, truly awful. b Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

11-13-2007, 07:34 PM	#20
HoqCBYMl Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 408 Senior Member	It is what it is. and yes I agree that it's just additional training. It's quite hard to do pretty waza when you're receiving a full swing. The difference between the action flex swords and the ones in the videos i showed is that they don't flex, and they're quite heavy. Either way, everyone trains different but why criticize without trying first? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote