[estuapped]

I suppose its up to the individual Dojo to decide when people are or are not to do tsuki. Delaying it till >3rd Dan is fine, but teaching it earlier helps people learn the basics more quicky, IMO.

It teaches control, how to obtain centre, and is the basis for "small waza". As far as actually attacking with it in geiko, no, not everyone should just go out and do it. But, once a kendoka is comfortable with their kamae, has enough control and sense of mind to not just thrust wildly, they should go for it. WITH the permission of their partener of course.

Pretty subjective topic tsuki is!

[Donadoni1809]

"One japanese godan here in london is v.good at tsuki. His teacher in japan is famous for it.... he's teaching me .... watch out JAKOB!"

I know ..First time 'officially' in jodan, I actually practiced with him...he told me at the pub that he didnt use tsuki, because I was no threat (yet) with my jodan.

Jakob

[Fertionbratte]

I agree that it is a dangerous technique but it is *v.important* to learn both how to do it and receive it. I agree that more time should be spent practising tsuki as kihon with all grades. I also think yudansha should give permission for their aite to use it on them in jigeiko, based on the sempai's knowledge of their kohai's ability, not whether they have a dan grade.

Back when I was training and making my way up the ranks, I too was discouraged from doing tsuki. The end result of that is now my tsuki is very poor. Whenever Japanese 4-dans visit our club I am embarassed by my poor technique as compared to theirs.

So yes MKKawai, I hearby call you both "old-fashioned" and "hard-headded" (sic).

b

[nitivearchit]

I was very wary of tsuki for years, as I have been injured twice by it - the first time got me on the upper arm, and I had a massive bruise for weeks, the second time was on the collar bone, and I was screaming blue murder - it was extremely painful. Both times the person who tsukied me were 5th Dan.

I think tsuki should be practiced more in kihon so that people can learn how to do it properly. The reason people get injured is because people are trying to impale them on the end of their shinai. Tsuki should have te-no-uchi like everything else.

I now practice tsuki when I see the opportunity, and have actually landed some nice ones - but I am still very wary - but that is what makes me miss! If I am worried about making the strike I miss - if I just go for it - it's fine

Gill

[GenManagerS]

There's a lot more to doing a tsuki strike during jigeiko than just stepping forward and poking the shinai into your opponent's tsuki-dare, and a lot more things that can go wrong than doing the same thing in kihon.

Too many beginners/lower dan grades are tense enough (Atama, you were knocked out twice by men cuts!!?) as it is, let alone trying to relax their whole body and respond instantly as a tsuki goes wrong in mid-execution. Landing on the back of your head after receiving a mis-timed tsuki is a lot more serious than just a bruised neck or throat.

There's a lot more kendo skill and experience needed beyond the technique itself.

Hamish

[duncanalisstmp]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.
MKK Really? I find that tsuki looks scarriest for rank beginners. They see people going for the other person's throat knowing full well that the armor isn't the best protection in the world. I know that's what I thought when seeing for the first times. It frightened me a bit (you must understand that a year or two previous a hockey player almost died on the ice during an NHL game in Montréal when he was hit in the throat with a puck: he survived only because they had doctors and an ambulance right there and then). Then, when I had received a few and dished a few out, I understood that it really isn't so dangerous. I honestly don't think that you need to be a 4th dan to understand that it's risky and you need control to execute it properly (I don't need a degree in sports medicine to know that getting hit with bamboo will leave a bruise either. . . It's just common sense). The hazards appear worse for beginners.

As for not getting joy out of a good tsuki. . . Can't agree with that at all. It's one of the toughest moves to pull off, you should be happy when you get it. I even feel a bit happy for my opponent when I receive it because I know that he or she just nailed me. Because one takes joy from something doesn't imply a lack of respect for the adversary or a lack of seriousness. In fact, one could argue that it is better to perform tsuki when in a "joyfull" mood rather than when angry.

Ares - You got me. I flinch and bring my head up when I attack. You should have seen my neck two weeks ago, I had a collar of red welts from an adversary who would simply stick his shinai on my throat whenever I went for men. . . I did 20-25 minutes straight of jikeiko with him.

[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

Aight so when is the good time to learn tsuki? 4th dan you say??
what about how many years in kendo? I don't know but I find it insulting! I have been doing kendo for only 2 years and half, I my tsuki is not more dangerous than anyone's else, I,m able to control my force...

Like someone said earlier....the most important is not the grade, but more the age of the kendoka in that case..kids doing tsuki might be dangerous

[KJnbceja]

A Kenshi can go through their entire career without ever learning to use Tsuki, but can never be much of a Kenshi if they don't master their basic fundamentals (refer to my previous post) and learning different wazas.

Hope this helps...

MKK

Yes, it's very helpful.. Thanks. SC

[wrewsTear]

M.K. Kawai, you are entitled to your opinion, however I disagree with it. I believe that if you cannot do tsuki, then you cannot do men (and vice versa) understanding one is very important to understanding the other.
I have read your previous posts, I am generally not in the habit of running my mouth off without having *some* idea of the argument at hand.
I believe the argument you are quoting with Mori sensei has little to do with the merits of men over tsuki. I would be willing to bet that he would have agreed that practise of tsuki would be beneficial toward being able to do 10K good suburi.

A clarification if I may. I would not teach tsuki to a beginner in the initial stages of their development, however once in bogu I would have them learn initially how to receive it, then gradually how to execute the strike. I don't believe I ever advocated a raw beginner learning tsuki. I said beginners which I take to mean anyone up to and including sandan. Others will have their own idea about what a beginner is.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, however that does not make it gospel. You have developed a set of beliefs and ideas based on the training you have done, my experiences are apparenly different. Who is to say which is right and which is not? Probably no one. Certainly not you or me.

As for which is more important hitting tsuki or hitting men, to me that is like asking which is more important - planting a seed or watering it?
They are both inextricably interrelated. One may do one a lot more often than the other, but they are no less interrelated because of this.

[Qeiafib]

Originally posted by kendokamax
Aight so when is the good time to learn tsuki? 4th dan you say??

Like someone said earlier....the most important is not the grade, but more the age of the kendoka in that case..kids doing tsuki might be dangerous Hmmm....I dont think there's a "good time" to learn how to do tsuki, I started parcticing tsuki way before everyone else in my club were tought how to do it, and by the time we started doing tsuki I've already had some basics on it, doesn't mean I don't miss though.
I'm not quite sure but I guess this applies with every waza.

With regard to age if you're coming from a place where people started kendo at a young age (eg. Japan) then I guess it'd make sense but if you've only started kendo when you're 15 or at a later age I beleive that experience is more of a factor, dont you think so?

[itsmycock]

Kendokamax,

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...

What you posted clearly highlighted one of the points I was trying to get at. If you factor in all the bad habits that beginners have, such as not keeping their heads down when they go in to hit, using too much strength, etc. with someone coming in with Tsuki, what do you get? A disaster waiting to happen.

As a sensei myself I would not want to put my Kenshi in harms way by unnecessarily having them divert their attention from mastering a good kamae, footwork, and hitting a solid kote, men, and do. I hope this addressed your post? I'm trying not to write a novel here

AlexM,

There is a big difference between getting a joy in achieving something and just enjoying doing something just for the thrill of it.

I get a "joy" out of hitting a good kote, men, or do. That doesn't mean that I enjoy hitting kote, men, or do. My focus at my level isn't about having fun in hitting someone, but more on what techniques I have to beat my opponent. Joy to me is measured in terms of the intensity of the fight between me and my opponent. Also, another thing that gives me joy is seeing my students achieve their personal goals and succeed in becoming better Kenshi. But, I digress...

From where I sit it looks like you get a few shots in -- great. But, do you really understand the potential consquence of your actions? I don't see that from you at this time.

Doing Tsuki or any strike for that matter just does not encompass whether you can do it or receive it. It is also about putting yourself in your opponents position and determining whether that person will create a situation that would spell disaster. It's about looking at your fellow Kenshi and recognizing that there may be some who can receive Tsuki and the rest can not. Kenshi with the same rank does not mean that they have the same skill. In a dynamic situation, conditions do exist that would put a Kenshi at risk of being seriously harmed by a Tsuki. I've seen it from my POV. Have you? If you have, you would not be so quick to trivialize the safety issue.

MKK

[lammaredder]

Ares2907,

Read my previous posts and while you're at it, ask yourself this question, which is more important... hitting a good Men or Tsuki?

There is a very good reason why all Kenshi practice suburi instead of tsuki drills during warm up. Every major strike (minus Tsuki) is derived from hitting Men.

The late Torao Mori Sensei (before the time of the promotional exams) was asked by one of his students when will he be promoted. Mori sensei's reply was, "When you have done 10,000 suburi."

The student countered, "But, I've done more than 10,000 suburi since I've been here."

To which Mori sensei replied, "10,000 GOOD suburi."

Moral of the story, Men is a fundamental technique of Kendo not Tsuki. Refer to my previous post about what I believe some of the other fundamentals of Kendo are.

There is a time when a Kenshi may want to learn Tsuki. However, a beginner who just picked up a shinai for the first time and has no concept of control is NOT the time that he or she should be practicing Tsuki. It is NOT necessary to include it in their basic practice. They have enough to worry about with their Kamae, footwork and hitting Men.

MKK

[resegooredo]

I honestly belief the reason tsuki is so dangerous is because of this stigma attached to it, if we use more in kihon it will become as familiar as a men cut. As for the injuries i've taken a few bad tsuki's but I've had more bruises from the classic (arm pit) do cuts and i've been knocked out twice by heavy handed cromagnum men..... but thats kendo.

[VodsNittats]

Originally posted by mingshi
I believe the level of perfection of your Men cuts are the same as those of your Tsuki. Tsuki is a thrust, not a cut and is therefore inherently different.

Personally, I think tsuki should be taught relatively early (like from ikkyu) but not used in jigeiko until competance is achieved. If it's practiced well, competence will come earlier than if not practiced therefore I can't state some absolute dan level.

If beginners want to experiment with tsuki, a much safer and better exercise is mune-tsuki. Just try to hold your centre and make mune-tsuki on your opponent. It's not a point, but it will improve your kamae.

[Promalada]

Call me old fashioned or hard headded, but I have a few qualms about Kendo today. One of them is the use of Tsuki by people who are clearly not qualified to do it! Especially, by people who are not even Yudansha!

In fact, I have problems with people who are 3-dan and below using it. People may think that I'm being unreasonable or that I maybe making much ado about nothing, but the fact remains that Tsuki is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo.

If done improperly, it can seriously HURT or even KILL someone!

Back when I was trainning and making my way up the ranks the thought of anyone below 4-dan doing tsuki was out of the question. It was strongly discouraged for Kenshi to attempt to do a Tsuki. But now times have changed and some Kenshi do it because they saw someone do it and it looked "cool."

All I can say is, how cool would it look if someone got hurt recieving a Tsuki... or worse... that person died? There was a reason why learning Tsuki was discouraged until you were at least 4-dan or higher.

It may look simple but, it requires a tremendous amount of control, confidence in one's kamae, and one's skill as a Kenshi.

When done properly it is an effective waza, but when done improperly it will cause more than just a bruise.

I've ranted on too long on this. But, this is what think and how I feel about this issue.

MKK

[nonDosearrany]

I like doing tsuki despite my low rank and I want to keep practicing it when playing kendo.

I personally think the danger associated with that waza is a bit exaggerated (fast foward to next week when there's an announcement of my death from tsuki on the boards). I said this in another thread where tsuki was discussed but here it goes again: I have never been injured by tsuki in jikeiko or shiai (despite them being thrown by mostly by people well under 3rd dan), I get hurt by tsuki in kihon when I actually have to receive the hit (thus dislocating my jaw, bruising my throat, etc.).

It's been my (limited) experience that tsuki is just so hard to get (all that aite must do is block only slightly to the side) that if someone manages to get it it's usually because their competent enough to control it. Beginners (I should probably put myself in this category) that try tsuki usually don't go anywhere (we don't reach the target, the hit is blocked, even if it gets through we're so surprised that we forget about zanshin, etc.) so the risk of injury is limited (and you can just oji waza after that anyway). As long as you're not trying to kill the opponent (or angry because of something) the hit really shouldn't be terribly hard, no?

One last point, kendo is a fairly dangerous sport or martial art (whichever you prefer) no matter what (it's not skydiving but that's fine by me). My scarriest moment came when I went for a straight "men" on someone and they tried to do the same thing but started late. I took his shinai straight on the throat (behind the guard), my head snapped back and I had to stop right there (I did get the hit though ). If he had hit a few centimeters to the left he would have landed on my trachia and it could have been much worse than it was. This is just to say that injuries to the throat would probably still happen if tsuki were banned forever (Heaven forbid).

As for the broader implications of banning certain waza for certain rankings I say BOLLOCKS! (I love that expression! ) Age groups I could understand (and even then it might get out of hand. . .) but not rankings. My understanding is that you either do kendo or you don't. I don't believe in doing half-kendo (well mine is bad but not that bad). Besides, how am I supposed to get better at something if I don't practice it? By "not" doing it?

[Dvjkefdw]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai

Unfortunately, Tsuki is not the most basic technique in Kendo. Although one would think that it should be. The fact of the matter is that it is the most dangerous point to attempt in Kendo. That's why it was strongly discouraged for most Kenshi below 4-Dan, especially those who weren't Yudansha. Well, that was then...
I believe this is not correct. what can be more basic then doing a lunging step (proper footwork) and not moving your shinai? I believe that this thread is focusing too much on using tsuki as a point in kendo.

Several sensei have told me that in order to understand all the other strikes in Kendo, you must first understand the tsuki strike. If everything in Kendo is based from your center, how can tsuki not be the most basic?

[Jourgenz]

I'm not saying that we should ban Tsuki (although I won't be sad if it were ). I'm just saying that there should be restrictions on using it.

My concern is out of safety for all Kenshi. I would expect a person with the rank of 4 Dan to know the hazards of using Tsuki better than someone who is Shodan. I wouldn't expect a non-Yudansha Kenshi to fully understand this because their first and foremost thing for them to focus on is improving their basic skills and wazas.

Tsuki when done properly is one of the most effective wazas a Kenshi can have in their arsenal. But, it is dangerous to use. To take joy in using Tsuki is IMHO not taking seriously the danger associated with it. Failure to recognize this point will lead to excessive use of it and create more opportunity for injury to occur. This IMHO is showing disrespect and a disregard for the safety and well being of your fellow Kenshi.

Yes, Kendo like any martial art is fairly dangerous. But, there is a huge difference between getting a hard hit to the Kote vs a hard thrust to the Tsuki. One will leave a nice big fat bruise and the other can cause more that just a bruise -- it can cause death.

[Sigh] There I go ranting and raving again.

MKK

[Fededorbprago]

Well, if tsuki is dangerous when it's done badly (when the shinai slides on the side to enter the men), we could change the men construction... a men that will be safer to do tsuki on...

It's true that it would be stupid to nearly die during a kendo practice because a beginner did tsuki on you... (well anyway you could die when crossing a street). I think we should practice tsuki during kihon to learn it correctly and then add it in keiko later when you mastered it. Something like that... I did some great tsuki in kihon last practice (don't know why but doing tsuki on that partner [t-a] feels easier to do than on other people ?_?), but I don't really feel confortable to do some in keiko. I'm still 2nd kyu and a 14-year-old girl... There's no seperate classes in our dojo (not enough instructors) so all the underage (well 2 of us) the dan and kyu people practice tsuki once in a while...

[Noxassope]

Yes M.K. Kawai i agree too with you.