Leaving a dojang/dojo.
 

I'm not sure if this should go here on in the 'dojo' section, so mods move it where you want.

For those who are sensei or kwangjangnim in a dojo/dojang, how would you feel about a student calling into the dojang to tell you he/she is leaving that day?

I've paid my fees until April 17th, and my new dojang expect me to start on the 18th. My current subumnin (coach or sensei with less than 4th dan) knows nothing about this, because I've been out of the dojang for the last two weeks due to a fairly minor injury.

I was going to tell him todau, when I start practising again, that I'm leaving, but I'd sooner go to the new dojang now, rather than continue in a place where I don't want to be. (Not to run down a subumnin, but when I went to the dojang to tell him I was injured, and showed him the doctor's report, he told me I wasn't injured, and I thought I was, only because of my small mind. Now, even allowing for translation/language issues, that's not on.)

Of course, I'm just going to say that I have other obligations, and can't committ to the dojang on a daily basis, and maybe in future I can go back there.

How would you, as sensei or whatever, feel about a student turning up after two weeks out, and more or less saying 'I'm finished'?

I have to say IMHO, that nothing better than the truth. He can not get mad at you cos you want a change, that's personal and nobody can tell you a thing about that. If you want to change and sart all over on a new dojo, well, just tell him or give him a resignation letter or whatever do you need to stop being part of your today's dojo, but again he can not say to you anything, cos you're not doing nothing wrong.

I would say, "Go for it". But typically, in kendo, after 2 weeks, they usually dont say anything, they just dissapear.

you are making a mountain out of a pile of dirt. from the other posts that you have posted here, it is apparent that you are overly cautious of making any sort of mistakes. i have said in my last post to you that in your situation and in your age, making mistakes is unavoidable. to you this seems like a big deal, but to the sensei there, you should be assured that he has seen it all before--others on the forum who are in similar situations will confirm. you are just dropping out of this dojang, no need to add such drama to it. yes, it might have been nicer to have done it in a more delicate and mannerful way (earlier, etc)--especially since you are in a sense "representing" foreigners to koreans--but what has passed has passed.

i obviously was not there with you when you spoke to your sensei, but knowing infinitely more of the language and customs of koreans than you, the phrase of "small mind" seems very strange. he might have meant that your "thinking is short", meaning that you are short sighted. and in view of your inexperience from the posts that you have written, there might be some validity to it. and as you can gather, language/translation or lack there of can mean a great deal.

find something that you can stick to which your physical happenstance cannot be used as a crutch and stick to it; you will gain much more from sticking to something than from any choice of a particular practice. and in your circumstance, i would think that something besides martial arts might be much more appropriate for you.

for gods sake, if you are going to quit, quit. All youve done for the last however long is bitch and moan about your dojo. Sooner or later they will find out what you are saying, so do what you think is the right thing, and then keep your trap shut.

Geez, that's sort of a harsh thing to say to a younger kohai....

Leaving a dojo because you need to under unusual circumstances, or because your sensei says "I never want to see you again" is never easy.

But advertising it on the internet constantly is bad etiquette.

But isn't that more a sign of a lack of confidence and a desire to "do the right thing" and be considerate and polite?

Sometimes with kohai, and with some dojos its hard to actually figure out what is "right" and "wrong" because of what a person of authority is telling you. Or what the peer pressure of the dojo is.

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for advice from people not involved directly.

I've personally been in situations where I've had to leave dojos. I've had friends, sempais, and senseis I respect expelled from dojos, more than once.

Its not like we have a written FAQ about "how to leave a dojo", or "how to recognize a bad situation and thus requiring us to leave". We don't talk about it much, but it happens, more than we'd probably like to admit. Maybe we should talk about it.

Its great if you or I find a great set of people to practice and to learn from, but sometimes we're not so lucky.

Do you mean that we should "suck it up and suffer in silence" in the name of etiquette or reigi? If reigi is based on mutual respect and mentorship, and the senior member is clearly not upholding their side of the contract, is it a case of "bad etiquette" to ask around and figure out if indeed that is what was happening?

Which is why I said things like 'Not to run down a subumnin' and also mentioned the language issues, and tried to be fair to the guy. It's also why I'm asking more experiended people how they would feel about this, as I don't just want to leave (I could, but prefer to be polite).

From Nonamehandle:

"find something that you can stick to which your physical happenstance cannot be used as a crutch and stick to it; you will gain much more from sticking to something than from any choice of a particular practice. and in your circumstance, i would think that something besides martial arts might be much more appropriate for you."

Thanks for the reply (and the same to everyone who replied). I agree with you when you say stick to something. As for not doing MA, well really anything other than a hard hit to the head is fine, and once I get that checked out, it'll be time to decide just what I'm going to stick though.

Here is my 0.2 nondenominational local monetary unit.

This isn't really about your injury. This is about losing your respect of your sensei.

I'm sorry that its happened. It is uncomfortable and unpleasant realization. Losing respect of your sensei can happen from a number of situations. I have seen, heard, experienced, everything from "losing faith in the system" to "being asked for sexual favors" to "being defrauded" to "being taken advantage of."

Once the respect is gone, the trust is gone, and its not really worth beating a dead horse. It ain't gonna get up again and give you a ride. Its time to leave.

Leaving is tough, particularly if you've invested a lot of time at that dojo and you have a lot of friends there, or in some cases your entire social life revolves around that dojo. Or you met your husband/wife there. Its tough.

Once that happens you have to take stock in a number of different things and decide whether or not doing this activity is worth it. Do you care if this sensei shows up somewhere else that you might be training? Do you love the art? Or do you do the art because its what your friends do, and thats what you talk about when you get together? Will the injury you have never heal if you keep doing the art? I've known plenty of people with torn ACLs and knees and ligaments and bad backs that have had to give up stuff. Again, very tough.

Once you decide to leave, most people just stop coming. This causes problems with things like rental bogu or equipment, and is noticable if your club is like 4-5 people. But life goes on, new people come and the old club will forget.

Writing a letter might seem polite, but are you doing it to burn bridges? If you burn bridges its pretty permanent. Most people say things like "oh, my new job has different schedules now", "I started school closer to the other dojo", or "I moved". If you write a letter detailing your grievences, or hinting at them, that will probably cause problems. Pretty big ones.

It might be a difference between Korean and Japanese culture, but making a fuss on leaving (which might be very proper in a Western sense, like the "2 week notice") means you intend on never coming back.

At the end of the day, you should do what you feel is necessary to resolve the issue for yourself. You shouldn't really worry about whether its "culturally sensitive" in either a Japanese or Korean or Asian way, and worry about your Western-ness. You will have to live with that decision for the rest of your life, so you don't want to look back on it and regret something because someone on an internet forum told you to do something. Once you decide on that action, you should do it with determination and not look back.

Good luck

Thanks for the replies, enkorat (and anyone else too).


I agree with your comment, and the rest of the post was good too. Oh, I know the injury has nothing to do with it; I just mentioned that to explain why I've been out for a while. Now that I'm leaving, I should have just said, with hindsight, this twoo weeks ago, though of course I didn't know that then for sure.

Mainly, I just don't enjoy going to the dojang, and that stops me motivating myself. I suppose I really could have gone yesterday, for instance, but I didn't. So, time to move. Because this subumnin is usually friendly, and he's a friend of a guy I want to stay on good terms with, and who introduced me to HDGD and reccomended this dojang, I wanted advice from other people before I left the dojang.

Best thing now is to just politely say that I can't go as often as I'd like, and have to move. Thanks for the replies people.

enkorat,

i am not sure that that is what happened. as for the rest of your post, in GENERAL i agree with you, but in this SPECIFIC case of ilporko, not sure whether it was on the mark. we also have to assume that some of the fault lies elsewhere other than this particular sensei.

in the korean context of things, getting a doctor's note is more of a formality than anything else: e.g. (in a school setting) i have the students get a doctor's note if they miss a class due to sickness etc. knowing full well that the doctors (or their pre-med friends) will write the note for them out of formality--but i ask for it because i want them to understand the idea of process. as to why ilporko felt a need to bring a doctor's note to the sensei for a volunteer activity, i am not sure. maybe he felt that it was the more "rei" thing to do. well it was neither "rei" nor "not rei", just superfluous. if someone practices sincerely in the dojo and the sensei knows it, there is no need for a note from the outside, just a simple, "sensei i have hurt myself, so i will limit myself to these activities only" would suffice for any korean sensei (private teaching dojos and other non-pro dojos).

though alison might have been a bit harsh with her post, i think she expressed something that some others might have felt as well...

Nonamehandle. I brought the note to the subumnin because I already had it for my job, and I thought it would be easier for him to understand it than to have me try my limited Korean. Also, if I had been out for 'a' class, I'd just have said 'Yeah, I hurt my arm, and couldn't come to the dojang'. But this was going to be for a bit longer. There was no sense of formality or etiqutte, if I understand 'rei' correctly.

As for people thinking I should 'keep my trap shut', I've always thought it best to follow a simple rule: If you know from the thread title that the topic will be of no interest to you, or will annoy you, don't read the thread, and don't go over the top with your comments. If you DO read the thread, you shouldn't complain about its contents, or the fact it was posted.

Can someone delete my previous post, as I can't edit it? The second post is a better reflection of what I wanted to say.

Nonamehandle. I brought the note to the subumnin because I already had it for my job, and I thought it would be easier for him to understand it than to have me try my limited Korean.

I thought the issue could be a bit delicate, and wanted some advice from more -experienced people. I've left a dojang before, ebcause I moved to a new location, and I just told the kwangjangnim. No bother. This one's a little difficult (I think), but some of you obviously don't feel the same way.

As for people thinking I should 'keep my trap shut', I've always thought it best to follow a simple rule: If you know from the thread title that the topic will be of no interest to you, or will annoy you, don't read the thread, and don't go over the top with your comments. If you DO read the thread, you shouldn't complain about its contents, or the fact it was posted.

I'm afraid Seppuku is your only option here.

must get a note from the doctor first http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif











sorry ilporko http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/wink.gif but kenzan made me do it!
(this is in jest so don't take it personally)

lol, I thought that doctors have been campaigning against seppuku??

seriously, since the guy is asian. a bow could go a long way, just ask him that if you can have a moment of his time, bow, then explain why you are leaving.

it is often best to leave on best possible term, after all, you will never know.

a letter is a bit too formal... it sounds like you are employed by the dojo? (or are you?) I did both the bow and the letter, but that was for my boss of 6 years when I resigned.

if you want to do seppukku, dont let kenzen be your second. That evil man-squirrel would only steal your nice katana.

dissappearing without saying anything is extremly rude. this is what children do all the time.

[QUOTE=nonamehandle;322365]must get a note from the doctor first http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...es/biggrin.gif

QUOTE]


Ha! I don't mind this sort of comment. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/smile.gif

If I were to seppuku, I'd never let a squirrel be my second. damn animals are too short to be able to see eye-to-eye with me, let alone to do the job correctly.

Imnothere, I don't work at the dojang; I work at a school, and they wanted a letter because that's the rule for this kind of school. If I take time off, even one day to go to the hospital, I need a letter.

Anyway, I went to the dojang a little earlier than usual, and one of the English-speaking students was available to help with the subumnin's questions. I just said that I no longer had the time to do gumdo as often as I felt was needed, so I had to leave the dojang. Maybe in future I could go back. The subumnin seemed Ok about it.

Kenzen is a were-squirrel, he turns into a man when its full moon and back to squirrel when its not.

Fair enough, looks like its easier then you thought. See what I mean? Always leave on good term, unless the subumnin is acting like a hole.

A letter for everything? No wonder you would want to leave.