[geaveheadeNox]

So the other day a person came to our training for the very first time. Sensei was out, and we were just going through basics with a sempai. So I find myself opposite this guy, and he's having the same struggles that I had on my first day. I'm really new to kendo myself; it was only my third day wearing bogu. But I'm watching him make very simple mistakes, and I tried to help him by pointing it out and repeating some of sensei's words on the subject to him. Struggling, I reach for a different analogy, and then it occurs to me that I am not in a position to really be teaching anything, though it was technically what I was doing. I said to a couple of experienced members nearby "stop me if any of this sounds like bullshit..." and nobody said what I was saying was wrong. But it felt wrong that I would be saying anything at all. It also felt wrong to just stand there as the guy's training partner watching him do things wrong without any sort of comment.

On the other hand, I finally understood and came to trust the ability to strike kote without the need for a closing step from the words and encouragement of an un-ranked fifteen year old young man.

I'm new to martial arts, and all that. Kendo is the first one I've ever done, and I started at 32, last October. But I'm not new to teaching or demonstrating things. The compulsion to share my experience is strong, but the awareness of my inexperience in Kendo, and the formality of martial arts based on rank and experience, gives me pause and makes me feel as if I'm doing something wrong. I didn't want to give this guy the impression that I was one of the club teachers, but he likely didn't know the difference, as I was one of the few people in kendogi and bogu. And as an outgoing, friendly individual I end up talking to people who often assume that I am more "important" than I am, though I don't want to give anybody false impressions or think that I am trying to be "more important" than I am.

Anyway, this has ventured from the comment/question area into a sort of rant. But there it is.

-Max-

[vaalmerruutel]

I found myself asking me the same question. There are some very relevant answers in here:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18034

However, this was when i was bout 1-2months into kendo. Though, it might still be applicable at your stage as well.

[MineOffedOvex]

I appreciate the thread link, it illustrated a couple points I hadn't thought of. Such as even though I know enough to know he's doing a given thing wrong, I may cause more harm than good for various reasons. The situation would have been much less ambiguous if sensei had been there. This practice was much more relaxed on account of his absence, and ordinarily I wouldn't have felt compelled to say anything. What the fellow was doing was using short, chopping motions instead of a sweeping arc, and tensing all his muscles the entire time for the hit in a death grip. It was wearing him out and hurting his hands, and I just wanted to share the epiphany I had recently had on the subject with him. But, I should have left it to the sempai and concentrated on my own kendo.

[sposicke]

Yep short answer: Biting your tongue is usually the best (and hardest) course of action.

When you finally are at a level to give advice you will find you most probably don't want to because you will know you only have a partial grasp on what you are been asked to explain.

[WomanBreast40356]

I still feel uncomfortable after six years, no doubt rightly so. I also know I explain far too much, less talk more action.

I think if you end up in the position of receiving your best bet is to ask them what some senior guy suggested further up the line. It gets them to think again about that bit of advice and stop information overload if your thoughts are another thing amongst the millions they have to work on to improve.

[TZids16I]

I generally try to stick to the "2 dan difference" rule. I refrain from giving unsolicited advice to a kohai who is less than 2 dan below me. So in my case (4 dan), I'll give advice up to 2 dan.

[ëàìèíàò]

What do you do when your sempai has a weakness, say in sparring. Maybe a bad habit or some move that leaves the target wide open.
Is it ok to point it out to sempai? I really don't think I should but sometimes, I feel like we're holding ourselves back by not pointing those out.

[Les Allen]

What do you do when your sempai has a weakness, say in sparring. Maybe a bad habit or some move that leaves the target wide open.
Is it ok to point it out to sempai? I really don't think I should but sometimes, I feel like we're holding ourselves back by not pointing those out.

Someone in my dojo is learning jodan due to some back issues and even though I'm his sempai, I'm perfectly comfortable with him pointing things out (my movements against his jodan being too predictable, leaving my kote too exposed, etc) after keiko with him because I definitely need the feeback. On the flip side, I never say anything to my sempai unless they specifically ask me if I noticed anything or to watch for something specific and even at that I just make observations. It also comes down to your specific dojo and the overall atmosphere. If you're in the kind of environement where people only your sensei and most senior of sempai give advice, then it might be better to hold your tongue. If you're privy to a more relaxed commraderie amongst dojo-mates, then if asked I'd say it would be ok to make small observations when asked. Just my two cents on the topic.

[Markdogas]

What do you do when your sempai has a weakness, say in sparring. Maybe a bad habit or some move that leaves the target wide open.

For goodness' sakes, take advantage of it!

[psbiuigw]

What do you do when your sempai has a weakness, say in sparring. Maybe a bad habit or some move that leaves the target wide open.
Is it ok to point it out to sempai? I really don't think I should but sometimes, I feel like we're holding ourselves back by not pointing those out.

Nothing will say it louder than you repeatedly hitting that target. Just telling him won't help much, but doing it will force him to recognize that it's open and make the changes needed to correct it. If he needs help fixing it he can take it up with his sensei. If you can't take the target, then it isn't really open as you thought, it could just be a come-on.

As for the OP, i don't even understand why somebody would be put in a situation to be paired up with others, especially others who don't know what they're doing, on anything near their first day. What exactly was he expected to do without having even been taught etiquette, how to grip, footwork, kamae, etc.?

[RicardoHun]

In our dojo and most of the ones I visit here your are expected to learn by either asking or by example, no one really says do this do that except for the bowing in stuff. If you do things incorrectly sensei will certainly correct you but for the most part it’s up to you to do your home work so to speak. In this area there aren't a whole lot of kendoka to start with, so it's common to be paired up with a beginner, for the most part the teacher will stay close by but when he or she is put into bogu they can be paired with anyone, we don't have the resources to only let beginners be paired with Yudansha. Beginners are taught at least in my limited experience through example and if they show a keen interest they will ask others what they thought or "am I doing this correctly" sort of thing. The teacher will always give the verbal part as will most of the higher ranking guys but pretty much everyone under shodan rarely says anything.

[Obgrfbke]

Nothing will say it louder than you repeatedly hitting that target. Just telling him won't help much, but doing it will force him to recognize that it's open and make the changes needed to correct it. If he needs help fixing it he can take it up with his sensei. If you can't take the target, then it isn't really open as you thought, it could just be a come-on.

Pretty much sums it up

[Hammaduersnes]

As for the OP, i don't even understand why somebody would be put in a situation to be paired up with others...

We have a small club, so it is inevitable that unranked people will practice with each other. How it happened is he showed up, said he knew someone from the club and would like to give it a try, someone lent him a bokken and a shinai and he fell in with us. Which is exactly how it was on my first day. New people showing up means a "fundamentals day", usually. How do new people come in to other clubs? What was your first day like?

[brilkyPlayday]

How do new people come in to other clubs? What was your first day like?

At my dojo, when I first showed up (and when other new people subsequently showed up), it was basically one-on-one practice with sensei. He showed us basic footwork and how to hold the shinai, then had us walk around for a bit (using ashisabaki) before giving us a shinai and having us do men-uchi. Everyone else practiced normally.

Practice is called off on days that he's not there, though he lets us know well in advance.

[seooptiman]

I've been doing kendo for over four years and I still don't say much more than "nice men" (when it is) to beginners and nothing to everyone else, unless they ask, or unless it's a friend who is doing something very strange. Beginners especially can get overwhelmed with all they are doing wrong, so sensei will often focus on a few things at a time. People "helping" only end up confusing and annoying the helped. Kendo is a long road - people will have plenty of time to figure it all out. Having a death grip for the first six months is not the end of the world.

[Qwjyrgij]

I've been doing kendo for over four years and I still don't say much more than "nice men" (when it is) to beginners and nothing to everyone else, unless they ask, or unless it's a friend who is doing something very strange. Beginners especially can get overwhelmed with all they are doing wrong, so sensei will often focus on a few things at a time. People "helping" only end up confusing and annoying the helped. Kendo is a long road - people will have plenty of time to figure it all out. Having a death grip for the first six months is not the end of the world.

but the death grip can become an ingrained habit which would take longer to correct than it would if he started off with the right grip. no?

[CruzIzabella]

The point was that the sensei should be teaching, and not everyone else in the dojo. If a person has a death-grip problem, you can bet the sensei knows it and will teach the person how to correct it.

but the death grip can become an ingrained habit which would take longer to correct than it would if he started off with the right grip. no?

[letmelogin]

yea. let em make mistakes. they will get fixed when the time is right. if they are detrimental the sensei or sempai will handle it.
but you are not wrong for being concerned and wanting to help

[Ruilnasr]

We have a small club, so it is inevitable that unranked people will practice with each other. How it happened is he showed up, said he knew someone from the club and would like to give it a try, someone lent him a bokken and a shinai and he fell in with us. Which is exactly how it was on my first day. New people showing up means a "fundamentals day", usually. How do new people come in to other clubs? What was your first day like?

Where I practice is also a small dojo, so we are loathe to lose any time for the regular students to spend with the sensei. For this reason, we don't allow people to join whenever they feel like showing up. We used to restrict it to the first practice of January or July, but with a new head sensei that has been expanded to be quarterly.

For us, a beginner class will spend the first 10-12 weeks practicing as a group with one sensei dedicating his time, or trading off with another sensei from practice to practice as they see fit. They begin earlier than the regular practice but overlap, and towards the end of their segregated weeks they'll begin to be folded into the regular group. First with just the warm-up, then through uchikomi, and eventually they'll cease the beginner sessions and just come in at the usual time. Even at this point they wouldn't be paired up with anybody inexperienced, ideally until they're in bogu. This last bit has begun to evolve recently as our numbers have diminished, so there are times when doing round-robin drills that there may be some awkward pairings.

[Anypeny]

Where I practice is also a small dojo, so we are loathe to lose any time for the regular students to spend with the sensei. For this reason, we don't allow people to join whenever they feel like showing up. We used to restrict it to the first practice of January or July, but with a new head sensei that has been expanded to be quarterly.

Do you just tell people, "sorry, come back in a couple of months"?

When I say we have a small club, I mean sometimes we only have three or four people show up. I'm happy when we have eight or nine. There are more people than that, but not everybody has been showing up all the time since I started. Every now and again someone will show up who's been a member for a while but I haven't seen before.

When you say you have a small club, how many people are you talking about showing up for practice?