[Pete789]

I wasn't sure which thread to reply to since you made two... and almost didn't reply at all.

A lot of bogu is made piecemeal between Japan and China; sometimes the futon are made in China and then assembled in Japan for the "Made in Japan" tag. Sometimes the entire thing is made in China. Some bogu comes from Korea. I don't think it really matters where it was made as long as it's good stuff; since you're planning on eventually going to KendoStyle or Maruyama (I assume you meant Maruyama), you'll be able to see, feel, and try on the bogu yourself. Going with someone with kendo experience is a great idea; they can help you pick out a good set of bogu and shinai. On the other hand, if money is an issue, there are many online retailers that offer good deals on bogu. I use Tozando and bought their 3mm machine-stitched set, which has been serving me well for over a year.

There's no problem with doing some research and getting your bearings while you wait for permission to get bogu. Enjoy kendo for now, though; there's nothing like being able to hit someone and know that you're not going to be hit back!

[leacturavar]

That's just silly. Unless you were bragging, I don't see why anyone would say anything at all.
Why put so much weight behind the opinions of gossiping, envious people? If you're simply doing your best to stay well equiped and not be wasteful, they have no rights to say anything at all.

Silly or not, it's correct. Some people, as in, more than just one or two, will think it's vain and show-off-y for newbies to buy fancy armor. Definitely at my dojo, where most of the guys are blue collar guys, if a new person walked in and bought $2000 bogu, people would have been askance. I got ribbed a little bit for wanting a custom set, which wasn't even over $600, initially (I ended up getting a different set on good sale for under $500 and felt better about it).

Relately, I think it's weird when a beginner tennis player buys a $200 pro-balanced racquet, or a beginner golfer buys $2000 forged Pings. The reason is because it is indeed wasteful for those people, whose skills can't possibly take advantage of that equipment, to buy it. It makes them look like they are just throwing money at the sport to show off and not building in proper amounts of experience. I don't know that the analogy perfectly fits Kendo -- after all, your armor is protective and fit is important and while $2000 forged Pings are likely to be harder to use as a beginner than some cheap flexible cavity-backed $300 irons, that's not true for Kendo -- but I'm just trying to make an illustration of why even if you have the money to buy very fancy bogu you might not want to on your first set.

Btw, to the OP, I don't think $800 is too fancy for a first set. I just question whether 2mm is the right stitch for you -- ask your sensei what he thinks.

[bWn4h8QD]

Yeah, my set was around $860 or so. No one said anything explicit, but I got a few comments from some people about it that implied it being a bit too snazzy for a first timer. I have, I hope, proven at least that I intend to continue doing Kendo, so the would-be contempt was short lived. If I could go back and change things, I would've gotten a 4 mm set and an extra pair of 3mm kote.

But OTOH many people also hold the view that one should get the nicest set they can afford. I agree with both to some extent, but lean more towards getting a cheaper set for the first time.

[casinobonusnolimit]

Silly or not, it's correct. Some people, as in, more than just one or two, will think it's vain and show-off-y for newbies to buy fancy armor. Definitely at my dojo, where most of the guys are blue collar guys, if a new person walked in and bought $2000 bogu, people would have been askance. I got ribbed a little bit for wanting a custom set, which wasn't even over $600, initially (I ended up getting a different set on good sale for under $500 and felt better about it).

Relately, I think it's weird when a beginner tennis player buys a $200 pro-balanced racquet, or a beginner golfer buys $2000 forged Pings. The reason is because it is indeed wasteful for those people, whose skills can't possibly take advantage of that equipment, to buy it. It makes them look like they are just throwing money at the sport to show off and not building in proper amounts of experience. I don't know that the analogy perfectly fits Kendo -- after all, your armor is protective and fit is important and while $2000 forged Pings are likely to be harder to use as a beginner than some cheap flexible cavity-backed $300 irons, that's not true for Kendo -- but I'm just trying to make an illustration of why even if you have the money to buy very fancy bogu you might not want to on your first set.

Well, you said it yourself, the analogy doesn't work...Bogu is protective gear and, chances are, you'll still be getting the best out of it whether you're experienced or not.

People who look at what other's have and feel envious or spiteful simply because they weren't as lucky when they started out, have no business in any form of martial arts. It isn't vanity and condemning it as such is just an excuse to be immature. It's not the equipment that determines the better fighter, so why make a big deal out of it?

[Sxscdergh]

People who look at what other's have and feel envious or spiteful simply because they weren't as lucky when they started out, have no business in any form of martial arts. It isn't vanity and condemning it as such is just an excuse to be immature. It's not the equipment that determines the better fighter, so why make a big deal out of it?

Well, the first person I heard the vanity thing from was a Sensei, and I highly doubt it stemmed from jealousy or nonsense like that. I think I understand why it might be bad for noobs to get nice kits by now. As it's been said before, a 4 or 5 mm will last plenty long enough, so there's no need to get some of the more expensive sets at first - at a certain point it becomes aesthetic, rather than purely functional, and at the beginning we should be more concerned with developing our kendo and standing out with good technique, rather than expensive bogu.

One of the sought-after qualities of the Samurai was living frugally (in the positive sense of the word), and focusing on the functions of things.

[BitStillrhile]

One of the sought-after qualities of the Samurai was living frugally (in the positive sense of the word), and focusing on the functions of things.

Yes frugal, as in, always living within your means...not acquisitive and miserly.

I'm not talking about extravagances here, I just think it's silly that beginners have to abide by an imaginary budget because it's vain to own a decent set your first time through.

[JennyStewarta]

I'm not talking about extravagances here, I just think it's silly that beginners have to abide by an imaginary budget because it's vain to own a decent set your first time through.

If the vanity thing is improbably to u, then consider it a financial safety mechanism. Most beginners quit, so it's better to have only spent $500-$600 than $800-$1000 or whatever. I'm not saying the OP will, but it's better safe than sorry, and many people who say "I'll do Kendo for the rest of my life" don't.

Sensei might see it as being rash to spend a ton if you don't know you'll stick with it (and face it, no one can ever know for sure they'll stick with it until they know exactly what it's like. It's fine if one has been practicing for a while and finds they want another set. They would have the experience to back up the decision.

[Hsmrcahr]

My first bogu is $350.00 and after using it for a while I could see something I would lilke to have it better. After passing Nidan, I ordered a nice set for $2,500.00 and boys, let me tell you so much better. After passing sandan, it is still as good as brand new. This bogu is going to last me long time. It may last longer than me.

[wowwieholmes]

My bogu was around 400 Euro's, really glad I bought it and it has some nice extras that are nearly invisible to the naked eye. The bogu does it job, it protects me, and it protects my very well actually. I'm very committed to kendo and am in it for the long haul, I'm planning to upgrade the set over the years to come when my skill level improves and the gear needs updating/repairs. This set suits me just fine and it's nice to know how a bogu works and fits before spending even more money.

@ Splinter
Normally the gear you use (in any sport) is somewhat of a "tell". I have a fairly cheap bogu, my skill level is not very high thus the expectations one has upon laying there eyes on me correspond. Would I have a very expensive do people would (often) expect a higher skill level. I have a very flashy snowboard (red with a large dragon, the board is to long for my height and weight), my boots have faux pas snake leather and also has black leather en red stripes and such. When people see my board they have certain expectations, I attract a lot of attention. Luckily my skill level is on par with the expectations people have after seeing my board (omg I sound so arrogant).
When I see a beginner with a very expensive board and other gear I also have the tendency to show him how it's done. Not because I'm jealous (I have no reason to because I love my board), but because he wasted a lot of money on gear he can't fully utilize and his skill level doesn't correspond with the money he spent. In short, it looks like he's showing off and he has no reason whatsoever to do so. Some people do it to look cool (this is ofcourse not always the case but seen as nonetheless), they just make complete fools of themselves and other people often have the tendency to make that clear one way or another.

[syptopsygieds]

faux pas snake leather

Just "faux."

[CorpoRasion]

When I see a beginner with a very expensive board and other gear I also have the tendency to show him how it's done. Not because I'm jealous (I have no reason to because I love my board), but because he wasted a lot of money on gear he can't fully utilize and his skill level doesn't correspond with the money he spent. In short, it looks like he's showing off and he has no reason whatsoever to do so. Some people do it to look cool (this is ofcourse not always the case but seen as nonetheless), they just make complete fools of themselves and other people often have the tendency to make that clear one way or another.

Call it whatever you want, but if it isn't jealousy, I'd like to see you logically explain why you hold such contempt for these beginners. If they're not trying to be boastful or flashy, there's simply no reason for you to try to outperform them; they are probably well aware of their own skill level.

As for a financial safety mechanism, I guess that makes sense, but if that was entirely true it would bring about genuine concern...not spite.

[ANCETPYNCTEXT]

Call it whatever you want, but if it isn't jealousy, I'd like to see you logically explain why you hold such contempt for these beginners. If they're not trying to be boastful or flashy, there's simply no reason for you to try to outperform them; they are probably well aware of their own skill level.

As for a financial safety mechanism, I guess that makes sense, but if that was entirely true it would bring about genuine concern...not spite.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure how to accurately convey what I'm thinking about it. I guess it's not really concern...maybe more of "what a waste of good bogu" -directed at those who buy and quit. I can honestly say that I don't feel jealousy towards noobs w/ nice gear, but I disagree with them spending more than what they need. Really, besides the thought that "well, I just liked how it looked," what justification does a beginner have for buying anything other than maybe a 4 or 3 mm? Maybe there's a sense that one needs to earn a nice set through hard work -again, I don't know how to explain it but I don't feel jealous...I just feel that it's better that way somehow.

I got ebogu's top quality 2mm several years ago. I was just too inexperienced to know any better and liked how it looked. As I've said, I wish I could go back and get something cheaper and maybe get an extra pair of kote. 2mm felt like sandpaper when I got it and doesn't offer much more protection than others I've tried. My two cents.

[haudraufwienix]

Maybe there's a sense that one needs to earn a nice set through hard work -again, I don't know how to explain it but I don't feel jealous...I just feel that it's better that way somehow.

But that idea doesn't really exist in Kendo, if it did, we'd all be wearing brightly coloured belts.

Oh well, I don't think I'll ever understand it, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[liontutuxx]

It sort of does, in reverse; there's an image that 4-dan and up MUST wear tezashi bogu, so conversely, cheap (machine-made) bogu is only for beginners.

[MinisuipGaicai]

I would say it makes perfect sense when you consider the grading system -we need a certain degree of experience (in years) between grades. This forces the person to 'earn' their rank, no? Colored belts are irrelevant to what I was getting at.

But we can still agree to disagree.

[Wgnhqhlg]

Call it whatever you want, but if it isn't jealousy, I'd like to see you logically explain why you hold such contempt for these beginners. If they're not trying to be boastful or flashy, there's simply no reason for you to try to outperform them; they are probably well aware of their own skill level.

There's the old saying "if you want to talk the talk, you'd better walk the walk". In any sport when someone buys equipment that is way above their skill level, they are perceived as talking the talk without walking the walk. When people see someone in $1000 worth of high-end mountaineering Gore-Tex and $2000 worth of signature big-mountain powder skis snowplowing down the bunny slope, the disconnect between the talk and the walk is big enough to engender instant contempt. It's not jealousy, it's a "pay your dues, fool" kind of feeling. There tends to be some of that in kendo.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with people paying $1500 for their first set. That level of expense is still on the upslope for quality, functional equipment. But I recommend against it simply because of the high chance of those people quitting.

[Aafimoq]

It sort of does, in reverse; there's an image that 4-dan and up MUST wear tezashi bogu, so conversely, cheap (machine-made) bogu is only for beginners.

I don't know if that's a japanese thing or not, I know two of my teachers godan and renshi both have machine stitched, another japanese one has handmade. I'll agree that there is defiantly a certain "look" that should be maintained at that rank but are you really going to catch flack for having machine stitched over hand sewn? In the long run what difference does it make if someone buys a 300 dollar set or 3000? I agree that bogu should be something that you grow into and your needs will change in time but if you have the financial means to buy a nice set all the more power to you. I don't think anyone at any of the clubs I go to would look twice at you, but there is a difference to a nice set and a fancy set that is borderline gaudy. In that case I think that would earn you some unwanted attention.

[M4tHkBw2]

I don't know that the analogy perfectly fits Kendo -- after all, your armor is protective and fit is important and while $2000 forged Pings are likely to be harder to use as a beginner than some cheap flexible cavity-backed $300 irons, that's not true for Kendo -- but I'm just trying to make an illustration of why even if you have the money to buy very fancy bogu you might not want to on your first set.

Btw, to the OP, I don't think $800 is too fancy for a first set. I just question whether 2mm is the right stitch for you -- ask your sensei what he thinks.

Have to agree with this, protection is protection, the finer point I would add is : a beginner can't really appreciate some of the finer points of beauty and craftsmanship in a set of bogu (i certainly didn't appreciate how nicely made my set was when I started). And I dont think they should be spending excess money on bogu features they cant appreciate yet, or know they have a preference for. (things like orizashi or micropunched palms for instance). Go cheap on the first set (protection is protection right?) and then when they have a better idea of what their preferences are they can spend the extra money then. My first set was $550 IIRC and in a couple years when I look at replacing it I will have no qualms about dropping a few thousand.

[portoskins]

Do I need to learn how to drive on a car with no power steering so when I would appreciate it more later when I buy a car with power steering?

Do I need to learn how to drive on a car with no anti-lock brakes so when I make more money, I will appreciate my ABS?

Is the point of learning how to drive learning how to truly appreciate the car?

You need a car so you can drive.

You need bogu so you can practice kendo.

Yeah, it’s great if you truly appreciate your bogu for what it is, but don’t make it more important than what it is. Saying a beginner can’t truly appreciate good bogu is like saying a student driver can’t appreciate a nice car….

Should all student drivers start on a 5th-hand beater car with no power steering or anti-lock brakes because they can’t appreciate a nice car for what it is?

For the first 10 years of my kendo practice, I wore a men where the men-grille bar is exactly the height of my pupil. So, I either have to “chin up” or really tuck my chin to see. Even now, I find myself forgetting to tuck my chin sometimes when I look in the mirror.

The second men I got was still incorrectly sized. It wasn’t until my third men that I got one that truly fits correctly. I appreciated the correct fit so much I got my second men reconstructed so it would actually fit me properly too.

Yeah, I REALLY appreciated my third men…but would I live through another 15 years of wearing incorrectly sized men so I appreciate this current men? HELL NO!

If you can afford it, get it right the first time. Developing bad habits from compensating for ill-fitting bogu isn’t worth the hassle of dealing with a little gossip.

That said, you should probably find out the culture of your dojo and act accordingly.

[Effofqueeno]

Call it whatever you want, but if it isn't jealousy, I'd like to see you logically explain why you hold such contempt for these beginners. If they're not trying to be boastful or flashy, there's simply no reason for you to try to outperform them; they are probably well aware of their own skill level.

As for a financial safety mechanism, I guess that makes sense, but if that was entirely true it would bring about genuine concern...not spite.

Well, often beginners aren't aware of their own skill level, they overestimate themselves very often. But that's not the point.

To put it very short
Waste of money
Waste of gear (they can't fully utilize the gear the bought)
Because the gear often requires some skill to use it, they use tricks or overcompensate resulting in bad technique
Their gear looks better then their technique (your bogu looks better than your kendo )
Because they have nearly no experience they don't know exactly what they want. I started with a relatively cheap freestyle board and after a couple of boards I have one that suits my style and preferences it was very expensive but it's exactly what I want. I saw people on hardboots who only wanted to jump or do pipes and vice versa.
You attract a lot of attention for the wrong reasons (you want to talk the talk but you cant walk the walk like Neil said)
People often need to learn maintaining their gear, it's often best to learn this with cheap gear.

Maybe I see things completely different from others, but I start out with beginners gears, and when my skill level improves so does my gear. I appreciate it more that way, because for some things you just need experience and is wasted on beginners. Like a fine wine is wasted on my because I don't drink wine and thus can't appreciate it the way it should be appreciated. And yes in the end it'll cost more in comparison to buying a more expensive set in the beginning but I prefer it this way. You just learn to appreciate the things you have and the improvements you made and your gear has when compared to your old gear.