You have not worked for a big company yet. in a big company it is called insubordination: for public defiance. things are usually lax' in every day business, but once an executive or QA team announce they will visit your worksite, you better snap to & do the song & dance...or you'll be unemployed!

I tell my kids this, " just because nobody tells you or enforces the rules doesn't mean that you don't have to abide by them." Maybe your instructor runs a lax club, which may be needed to recruit new people unfamilar with Kendo/Kumdo ethics & rules, but you should learn & practice the rules yourself.

I also feel the biggest problem that effect the world is people are unable to recognize when they are wrong or responsible & to address it with sincerity. If you do not "man up," you will loose a lot: your kendo club, advanced knowledge, friends, etc... It isn't worth it.

hmmm, I don't think this is about two sides to a story, it sounds completely multi-face, like dice - roll one way, you get different number.

Lots of people make valid points. And some novice instructors/coaches, regardless of whether they are sensei in name or rank, he is leading that group, on a basketball court, badmington who cares if its in the green grass, its a place for learning budo, and not the dream dojo that some lucky folk get to learn Kendo in.

He was under pressure to teach, his way even if that was not the best in your opinion - and sure he may be panicking, but anyone who is 8 dan can see straight through all of this, and also see the effort of this man and people doing Kendo with him.

I'm not going to be as bold like others saying, you are in the wrong or he was because I think its like a game of tag, it went one way, then the other, and quite frankly probably both of you know you're in the wrong or right on some points, but too stubborn to loose face. Being told not the come back for anything, be that Kendo or cookies - is hard and very final, like being 5 yrs old again - it stings and hurts - so weigh up carefully the impact of any action you may take - the impact on him, the group, everyone's morale and not only your own.

Learning Kendo from who ever, with who ever, is dialogue ie. takes two to tango, there's a deal to be struck by both sides, not just his or yours...

from reading what you said, my opinion is that you were pretty rude. and he was wrong not to emphasize those things from the start. you are both wrong, the ball is in your court. you can apologoze, and maybe return in time for the honor of learning from an 8-dan sensei, or be stubborn and never return to the club again. You might want to look for another club or dojo nearby, but I would at least try and make it to the 8-dan class.
thats the way I see it at least.
Good luck whatever you choose

It's very difficult for any of us to judge this situation since we don't know exactly what was said on both sides and we don't know how you've been practising for the past few years but why not look at this as an opportunity rather than an inconvenience? Don't think about it as having to suddenly learn a lot of reiho at the last minute purely for the 8th-dan's visit. Think of it as a good excuse to improve your reiho and make sure you keep doing it properly even after the 8th-dan has left. You may be annoyed that you haven't been taught it much in the past but unless your college course happens to cover ways of breaking causality using household items, there's not a lot that can be done about the past - you'd be better off thinking about how you'd like the future to go.

Personally, I'm not a fan of dojo that are *too* strict and formal - shouting 'hai' every thirty seconds at teachers who don't actually speak Japanese doesn't suit me, but I do believe that it's important to do things properly and there's no reason why you can't keep the informal, friendly atmosphere while doing reiho correctly.

Perhaps it would be worth reconciling with your teacher and discussing what would be the best way to go forward from here, rather than what should have been done in the past.

To the OP:

If you don't like being told to change something that is wrong, what hope is there for you and kendo?

hint: one word answer is available.

You were wrong, and what you wrote was rude. And it's even worse because you don't think so.

You're not allowed to modify your shinai by adding whatever pleases you to the shinai. He told you to remove it, and you talked back by saying, "it's special?" If I were him, I would have kicked you out there and then.

Your instructor's only mistake is being too nice to you guys for too long.

It seems your instructor gave you some advice, and you ignored it. That's not so strange, it happens all the time. The puzzling part to me is that you seem to blame him for the fact that you ignored his advice, on the grounds that he didn't insist that you do something you didn't want to do. Of course it is not a kendo instructor's job to make people do something they don't want to do. Please accept your own culpability for not doing what you were told.

I think you correctly perceived that your instructor is sweating the visit from the 8 dan sensei. It's not hard to imagine that the rush to implement detailed rules of etiquette is his attempt to compensate for feelings of inadequacy. Unfortunately, instead of easing his mind by offering to help in any way you can, you criticized and undercut his efforts. A dojo really cannot work properly unless the students and instructors support each other. You need to have your dojo working properly when your visitor arrives.

If you want to get better at kendo, you'll need the help of your instructor (such as he is), and all your dojo mates. I think you know what to do. My feeling is that if you can swallow your pride and adjust your attitude, you can make a big leap forward. An opportunity like this could set the stage for your future development, so try to set aside any hurt feelings and think long term.

It sounds to me like this instructor ran a relaxed, fun club that everyone enjoyed, and in preparation for a visit from a high ranked instructor devoted a whole class to etiquette, and even went through the time and effort to write a detailed email for the reference and education of his students. When you balked at learning the etiquette and questioned his manner of teaching, he gave an entirely appropriate response -- if you are dissatisfied with his teaching to go someplace else. From your original post, it doesn't sound like he irrevocably threw you out, merely that he gave you a choice.

Perhaps the instructor should have explicitly taught and enforced proper etiquette everyday from day one. On the other hand, if it's a small club requiring a certain number of members to remain open, it's understandable that he might let things slide and not overwhelm folks with foreign customs and modes of behavior.

Were you out of place? From a Japanese perspective, I agree with slidercrank that you would have been out the door at the red string incident, and this particular situation would lead to being told to STFU and learn the etiquette or don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. But that's a Japanese perspective; dojo are not democracies or partnerships, and all relationships are hierarchal. As you guys didn't even know enough to bow when entering/leaving the dojo (budo etiquette 101), I don't know that you could be expected to adhere to a Japanese perspective. So, from an American perspective, you were not out of place. You were out of turn. I'm not sure what you want here, but it seems like you'd rather he let the class be as lax as usual when the sensei comes. But he will expect a certain level of etiquette, and if he doesn't see it, much valuable time that could be spent practicing keiko will probably be spent learning these various customs and rituals, or worse, not seeing you guys as worth his time to come again. Not learning the etiquette is not really an option. So, either you guys can be lax most of the time, and on high alert when a sensei comes, or you can be strict on etiquette all the time. If you'd rather it be the latter, the time to bring that up to the instructor would be after this visit and before the next. And rather than saying, "This is overboard, if you're worried about your teaching, you shouldn't invite high level teachers", it would have been better to say, "Personally, I'd like etiquette to more emphasized in regular practice, so that you and we don't get stressed trying to remember it when a visitor comes."

Finally, I think you'll find that in life one person's "straightforwardness" is another person's "rudeness". There's a reason why polite expressions tend to be vague and round about.

Ok, well imop, I don't think that the email itself was rude per say...blunt maybe, (which as I understand it, IS rude in Japanese culture- even though its not rude in American culture). However, I do strongly think that your attitude behind it is not right. If your instructor told you to take the red tie off your shinai, why didn't you take it off? Why does your instructor have to MAKE you do anything? Arn't you learning Kendo by choice? It seems really childish to feel like you need to be made to follow the rules. You said in another post that your instructor didn't teach you etiquette- but maybe he did and you just didn't listen! You'd never survive in a non-university kendo dojo! Out in the real world! Actually I think its rude that you disregarded your instructors advice to take the red tie off. It's special? Seriously? (if that's the case, buy a second shinai to use in class- and take the red tie off of THAT one...)

Maybe you'd like fencing better...

You hit the nail on the head!

Very true. As I said, I think that from an American perspective the email itself is not rude when it's taken of context anyway. (out of turn does seem about right, though. It would have been more tactful to say something like that afterwards).But your attitude kind of is, since you just blow your instructor off when he tells you to do things, complain that he didn't "force" you to do it so you shouldn't have to now, and then when he gets serious about getting you to do these things, you email him a "mature" letter.

I'm not the type to blindly follow authority (though if I were dealing with Japanese people, or living in Japan, or dealing with a boss or some other authority that you need to listen to- I'd know enough to keep my mouth shut and follow authority even if I don't agree). Even so, its just a matter of respect to listen to the things he's teaching you. It sounds to me that if you read the subtext in whats going on here- you just don't want to have anything to do with kendo's ettiqute. I apoligise if I'm wrong, but thats how it's coming off now that I'm hearing the whole story.

But, you know, Kendo has a lot of the Japanese culture infused within it, so I'm surprised about all of this. Personally I don't think of the bowing, and the etiquette as some kind of meaningless thing- its not about the bowing per say, but the meaning behind the bowing. It's about respect, being grateful (for being taught, or fighting an opponent) and it's about learning to be humble, among other things. So whats the big deal?

This whole thing is just really really really weird. Not to mention that, heck, how on earth did you guys find an 8 dan to come to your university? Do you have any idea how rare that is? I was told that there is only one American 8th dan in the entire U.S. So unless the 8th dan is that person, you're talking about someone who is visiting the U.S. from another country (unless you are living outside of the U.S. But your profile says you are in the U.S...)

My own sensei - 7th dan- would (probably) say that if rei was not taught, it's not real kendo. For the first couple of classes that I took when I started kendo, we focused almost entirely on bowing! and rei! I can't imagine doing kendo without the etiquette. And just because its from a different culture doesn't mean it's worthless- again, to me, its the meaning behind what you're doing thats important.

Need some advice here.

=> You don't even listen to your own sensei(senpai) and you are willing to listen on-line stranger's advise ??? Even Neil sensei gave you advise and you ignore it. So it sounds like you are not a listener...

First, he goes absolutely berserk when anybody from outside the club comes to watch/practice with us. We have an eight-degree dan coming, and I’m not arguing that this isn’t a big deal. However, the past practice he dedicated the entire time to teach us etiquette, making the comment, “I’m very stressed. He’ll look at you guys, and judge my teaching.” He then, the next day, sent out a long email point by point telling us what we need to do—such as bowing when entering/leaving the room, noting wearing T-shirts that show, removing a small red string from a shinai—yes, things that we shouldn’t be doing, but he has rarely, and often never complains about—and then a lot of things that are very foreign to us, such as responding, “Hai!” to everything, etc, etc.

=> He is stressed. He also ran very relaxed environment. This usually happens at the US university dojo to ran club. I have experienced same thing. Also, when someone visit, they rarely give you enough time to prepare for such practice.

The reality is we’ve either never been taught etiquette, or it isn’t enforced. I pointed out he’s being fake here by fussing at us and trying to fix all this in forty-eight hours to prove to the sensei he’s a good teacher, because if that’s the case he really hasn’t taught us well, and that maybe he shouldn’t have ran the risk of inviting the sensei if he was so stressed about how we’d come across. It seems like a logical argument.

=> I am sure he taught you some form of etiquette. But you probably didn't care and he didn't enforcing them since it is relaxed environment. Also, it is very tough to enforcing them when they are small group... If I was a student, I would drive 3~4 hours to get trained by hachidan. This is very good opportunity for both your sensei and yourself. But you simply tell him not to invite him. Meaning you are also very ignorant student.. And you even dare to tell your sensei "FAKE" ???

His response was a complete rebuttal—that he has said these things, but didn’t want to be “hardass” or get in arguments with beginners, so he didn’t press the etiquette—and that if I didn’t think he was a good teacher, he wasn’t worth my time and I need to find another sport and not bother coming anymore.

=> I would say exactly same thing. Maybe Kendo is not your thing.

Now, I’m a student with bogu that’s been in Kendo off and on throughout two years, due to an injury and conflicts with a class. I’m also the last student of the university he’s using a room from, so I think it’s kind of silly for him to pull that, because it’s unlikely they are going to have the room much longer, unless another student joins. Regardless, I’m willing to not return, but did I overstep my line by pointing this out to him? I was mature in my emails, and expressed at the end after his comment that I, “Didn’t think he was an inadequate teacher, just that if you want something to be done right, you teach it and enforce it to be right from the first day, and don’t fix it forty eight hours.”

=> Again, just blaming to your sensei... He is teaching you manner. You may not be perfect but at least you can try to support him. You understand that he was stressed and he took his time to write that long e-mail. But you still don't appreciate that. Even worse, you are thinking about room situation ?

Well, that’s it, then. I’m not going to swallow how I feel about his failure to teach etiquette, and his silliness whenever new people come, but am willing to put myself up to judgment if I was out of place calling him on it. And if this incites anger, please address it respectfully. Thanks

=> You don't give respect to your sensei(sampai), why do you expect any kind of respect from us ?

I would say same thing.....

GET OUT OF MY DOJO !!!

What's with the quotation marks? Are you implying that a hachidan is not a very high level? Because it sure sounds like it.

Out of curiosity, though, what's special about the red string?

Mega out of bounds.

If I was you I'd read up on rei, apologize and grovel at his feet to be allowed to get back in and participate at the guest training where you'd try to be the best example of a well-behaved and honorable kendoka.

You know, it doesn't matter how you feel about what your instructor teaches you. It's all about your attitude and how you communicate it.

If in the past you'd have felt like your instructor should teach more of it, you could have said so, over those beers, for example, if your regular training athmosphere is that relaxed. Just a friendly comment, that you'd love to learn more about rei. Nice and friendly.

But at a moment where he himself is obviously stressed and insecure, you go and call him names instead of trying your best to support him and your fellow dojomates. That's incredibly immature and shows lack of "team spirit".

Did i hear hachidan sensei visit, dude if you have any love for kendo, apologize to your teacher, from what you said he's just one grade above you plus he's running a uni dojo, this should be reason enough for you to help instead of be uber judgemental, i mean he didn't brainwash you to believe that he's a multidan head of the pink ninja clan, oh and i agree that e-mails aren't the best way to communicate in this case.

In very short - as everyone else here before have already said it - if you have problem with authorities and you insist on doing kendo your way, then you're in for very bumpy road!

I apologise for the capital letters; I am not 'shouting' - - it is simply a case of wishing to differentiate my insertions from pre-written comments.

AGREED!

You're an adult, when your sensei gives you advice it's up to you to act upon it. He told you to cut the red string, you refused (or maybe didn't care enough to do so) and with that you sent a certain signal. He probably let it slide because it wasn't a direct danger/hazard to your fellow kendoka and by enforcing strict rules (customs etc) he would probably scare away people from your group, making your group even smaller than it is now. That could effect your kendo worse then not enforcing strict rules. However not enforcing those rules doesn't mean they don't excist or you shouldn't abide by them, it just means that until then there wasn't a penalty by not abiding the rules. Now however the time has come to enforce those rules (he'll probably be a bit stricter from now on). Keep in mind that it's not everyday a hachidan comes to visit. It's a perfect chance to learn a lot and all you have to do is behave in a certain fashion that is completely normal to the most of us.

We have a pretty relaxed dojo, but we never forget the proper behaviour. When a visiting sensei, a seminar is attended or when one of our previous sensei come by we behave properly with everything that's expected from us and a litte bit more. Don't forget that you're to learn kendo by choice and that when doing kendo "kendo" comes first and fun comes second.

You don't have to do it perfectly, that's almost impossible. Just show you care enough to make the effort do the best you can.

I'm going to be blunt here: quit whining and and complaining about how you feel he should've handled it and take the string off. As others have said, any external modifications or decorations don't belong in a dojo.

Because you're getting a visit from a HACHIDAN, any dojo hosting such a high level sensei would go over etiquette just to make sure everyone is on the same page. We do that at my dojo when we get visits from high ranking sensei and again, why wouldn't you want to put your best foot forward?

Agreed, he should have been enforcing etiquette from the start but if you have any desire to continue kendo and be serious about it, quit whining and learn the etiquette.

From a Japanese culture perspective, you would've been kicked out without a second thought. Get off your high horse, realize that you're going to miss out on a great opportunity to get top notch instruction, apologize, and (at the risk of sounding like a broken record) learn the etiquette and follow it.

Perhaps among friends this wouldn't be considered rude but in the context of kendo, Japanese culture, and the workplace (talking real jobs here, not seasonal or temp ones) this most definitely is.

Okay, okay, before we go on a witch hunt, let me explain.

I said I did NOT remember him ever asking me to remove the string. In the email, he said that a certain person was standing next to us when he said it, and that he would remember. I went and mailed and asked the guy. There's no reason he would lie, because he doesn't like me that much. He said he remembered the guy (teacher) commenting, "What's with the string?" to which I said, "It's my special string."-- "It's special?" "Yes!" And then we stopped there. No further discussion about the string.


I don't know about you folks, but I don't read in between the lines during my everyday life. There is no way I could have known I was doing something wrong. No, I haven't been to tournaments. No, I haven't been outside of this dojo. So this is it.

My final thoughts on the matter ...
Back when I was a Scoutmaster, I always told the boys that whenever you hear yourself making excuses, stop and figure out what you did wrong since you'll never have one without the other. I've been reading lots of excuses from you about why you did this or why you wrote that. So, since you find yourself making excuses, you should go back and examine your actions to figure out for yourself what you did wrong that created the need for the excuses.

If he is japanese and the hacidan is also it puts the instructor in a bit of a predicament. Having been to clubs with a lower dan (sandan in this case from japan to university in the states) instructor. They are usually very cautious about teaching, because it would be unheard of for a sandan to be doing anything in the way of teaching back home. Additionally there are several japanese instructors I know that attempt to change the way things are traditionally taught in japan to make it more palatable to western educational norms. Some hachidans are known abusive sociopaths, and he may be worried about the lashing, both verbally and physically he is going to take for 1. being presumptions enough to try and teach kendo, and 2. Not enforcing rei and etiquette. Etiquette is really the only thing that sets us apart from the nutjobs hitting each other with sticks in their backyards, so its a fairly important part of kendo. It doesn't sound like he 'threw you out' you are using that interpretation because you are acting like a bratty child. Your a university student for cheese and rice's sake. You need to deal with problems and people conflicts without running to mommy and daddy or some invisible men on the internet for advice. This is part of the personal development of kendo. He gave you a choice to either shape up and get with the program or get out. I can say personally as a low level dan that occasionally teaches beginners in a place with no dojo I would have given you the same option. As for hachidans and rei, I once was at a seminar with a very famous hachidan, he became quite upset after watching us bow in, apparently some people were not sitting in seiza correctly because he spent the next 2 hours of the seminar giving instruction on the proper way to go down to, sit in, and get up from seiza, including many of the finer details. If a little instruction in rei and an email with some basic rules puts you off then I think you should just quit kendo now because your not cut out for it.