We must taste the bitter before we can appreciate the sweet
 

Hello,

"We must taste the bitter before we can appreciate the sweet" -unknown (bible?)

This is an interesting notion that makes me question what I thought about the cessation of suffering. If one were to no longer taste the bitter, surely their appreciation of the sweet would decline. If this happened, one would surely find less enjoyment in life.

So what did the Buddha mean by the cessation of suffering, if not an ultimate end to suffering? Would such a state of mind even be worth it? Suffering seems human to me, and to not ever suffer seems unnatural. To attempt to achieve non-suffering seems to me like trying to swim against the current. Why not just float downstream?

What do you think? I'm kind of in limbo right now because this is a pretty drastic change in thinking for me. Where does the Buddha's path really lead? Suffering is impermanent, and accepting suffering as a part of life makes more sense to me than trying to achieve a state in which suffering is no more.

Looking forward to your input/advice. Thanks!

hello Nathan

yes. if one were to no longer taste the bitter, appreciation of the sweet would decline. by the cessation of suffering, buddha meant 'peace'. when true peace is actually tasted, in comparison, 'sweet' also tastes 'bitter'

i think to practise buddhism, there must be some kind of improvement we wish to make with our life, some kind of reduction of suffering

the total cessation of suffering is certainly possible but, at the same time, it is not easy to do, especially at the beginning stages

accepting suffering is part of the early stages because there are many occassions when all we can do is accept suffering

the underlying emotions are simply too strong and we have no choice but to learn acceptance & experience the 'non-conflict' of acceptance

learning acceptance is like finding a still point or place of safety in the eye of a storm

to try to achieve a state in which suffering is no more certainly does not make sense as you say because often patient acceptance (rather than 'trying') is what we must practise

in the Dhammapada, Buddha taught enduring patience (rather than 'trying') is the supreme practise

until a person has reached the first stage of enlightenment (stream enterer), accepting suffering is an essential practise because, in practising acceptance, the underlying emotions that create suffering are given a chance to resolve & dissipate themselves

this is the same as giving a storm time to pass by and dissipate

kind regards

element http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

My grandmother had a series of pithy one liners which continue to sum up the nature of the process for me. One such is " these things are sent to try us " and it seems to me that until final enlightenment this applies, thus there is enough bitterness to allow the sweetness to shine through.

I don't know that I'm understanding this correctly. Are you saying that the end-goal of practicing Buddhism is to achieve a state in which one continuously tastes a sweet that is sweeter than all other sweets? This seems like a contradiction to me, in that the goal of practicing Buddhism is to satisfy a desire.

Yes, I see the value in this. But once somebody finds clarity, why would they continue to work towards enlightenment? At that point, wouldn't it be clear that wanting to reach enlightenment is a desire?

I'm not trying to argue against Buddhism or anything like that. I haven't been following the Buddha's teachings for very long, and it has helped me quite a bit. I've been questioning Buddha's path lately though, which has left me in a sort of limbo.

To me, cessation of suffering means that you know which actions and choices will cause suffering, so you try to make choices that will not cause unnecessary suffering. It does not mean that you cannot suffer.

Cessation of suffering actually makes you free. Using your analogy, if you just float downstream, you will have no choice over your life. Once you are enlightened, you will be able to hover on top of the stream, and go anywhere you wish, up the stream, down the stream or leave the stream and go to the forest instead.

My grandmother had a series of pithy one liners which continue to sum up the nature of the process for me. One such is " these things are sent to try us " and it seems to me that until final enlightenment this applies, thus there is enough bitterness to allow the sweetness to shine through. This reminds me of what Shunryu Suzuki said: Hell is not punishment, it's training Regards,
Bundokji http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/hands.gif

that is a nice way of putting it, that one continuously tastes a sweet that is sweeter than all other sweets. but what i meant is when the mind tastes the peace of nirvana, the taste of pleasant feelings lose their attractiveness because the taste of nirvana is more satisfying

i think as clarity becomes to norm, one is no longer 'working' and the path to enlightenment just becomes a natural way of life

regards http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

Whilst I understand what you mean about accepting suffering as being a part of life there is another way of looking at it.
From my experience, I can see how practice has assisted me to become more intolerant of suffering rather than accepting it.
For example, practice has enabled me to see how I tolerate, avoid and accept feelings of dissatisfaction in unhealthy ways and from seeing this practice then also helps me to change these patterns rather than continue on in unproductive ways. Hope that makes sense.

Yes I agree - and in my opinion if the mind finally has equanimity and peace, then concepts such as 'bitter' and 'sweet' probably wouldn't be so relevant anyway.


http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

Hello andyrobyn,

For example, practice has enabled me to see how I tolerate, avoid and accept feelings of dissatisfaction in unhealthy ways and from seeing this practice then also helps me to change these patterns rather than continue on in unproductive ways. Hope that makes sense To be quite honest, i could not understand what you meant by "accept feelings of dissatisfaction in unhealthy ways ". From my limited understanding, there are three ways of dealing with dissatisfaction:

1- expression
2- suppression
3- acceptance (or totality) which is the middle way or the Buddhist way as i understand it.

I thought its through the very acceptance (or in other words complete lack of desire) of this shore we transform it from mundane to supermundane. So how can the acceptance be described as unhealthy?

Regards,
Bundokji http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/hands.gif

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Thanks.

Prior to clarity being the norm, one could, in a moment of clarity, realize that desiring to reach nirvana is a desire of the mind. It is simply the mind attaching itself to an ideal in which, once achieved, peace will be attained. Am I wrong in this assessment?

Peace is what is desired, and practicing Buddhism is how you achieve it. Upon no longer desiring peace, why would one continue to practice Buddhism?

Hi Nathan, I offer another observation from my experience. I have found that the moments of peace which I experience from practice lead me to continue with practice with confidence of the outcome.

I like very much your interpretation.

But these are desires. The desire to be free. The desire to be enlightened. Doesn't Buddhism teach that one should free oneself from desire? Why desire to do anything? Why desire to eat? To drink water? To live? Why desire good? Surely to desire good would lead to suffering.


How is this state of mind any sort of improvement over one in which (good) desire serves as a motivator? Sure, there may be some suffering if one desires the well-being of others, but along with suffering comes the opposite as well. Why should I not simply accept this? Won't the inevitable suffering pass? Is the inevitable suffering not worth it? What's really important? Is it to rid myself of attachment and the resulting suffering that is experienced?

These are the kinds of questions I'm asking myself.

But in practicing Buddhism, should you not dissolve attachment towards the outcome that you wish you achieve? Even with confidence in the outcome, upon dissolving desire for the outcome, why would one continue to practice? Is practicing not in pursuit of a desire? What happens when you realize that it is a desire and then let the desire go?

Practice has not become being about pursuit of a desired outcome - it is what I do - breath, live etc. no matter what with less stress.

hi Nathan

Nirvana is something that cannot be desired because Nirvana is the state free from desire. To use your words, upon no longer desiring peace, one actually starts to practice higher Buddhism. This may seem like a riddle, as Ajahn Chah explains from 4:30 to 5:46 of this video.

Regards http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/peace.gif

Element explains it well above.

Awareness of progress is when it comes to mind that I have not become overly happy / distressed at a time I would previously had done so.
An example from this week at my work, when I voiced an informed yet strong opinion about a client's treatment and was told by a colleague to get a life, I thought " mmmm, have I done anything to offend ? " rather than " you b$t*h " as I may have years ago - lol.

Nathan, questioning is a good thing. We are not on the path of Buddhism, to blindly accept the words of the Buddha's teachings, but rather to look at them, try them out, apply them to our everyday life. We then learn, by experience, what works or resonates for us, and what doesn't.

I think we all at some time or another, have been in the state of 'limbo' that you describe, I know I certainly have. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/hands.gif

Hello Nathan,

Your opening post made me remember a similar quote I like:

"Touch is only possible at the edge of spaces. Light is only precious during dark intervals."

About your question, I really think that the complete quenching of Dukkha is possible.

Element has explained it very well and there is not too much to add.

But... why I am convinced of it?

Because meditation.

Because when mind is at ease with daily life happenings, when there is no self imposition toward them, when mind is silent and in a state of non grasping, non clinging, a kind of rapture or bliss is there, which is not exactly a complete cessation of dukkha but it points toward it.

It is like driving by road... at first, signs tell you of a long distance... as you endure in practice, suddenly, instead of 1000 miles ahead there are 900... you are reaching the goal!

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ies/flower.gif

Moderator's Note:

The rest of the thread has been moved to "Why would one work toward an outcome (any outcome)?" at General Buddhist Discussion Forum: