An escape from concepts
 

I am obsessed with religion and philosophy.

If I could I would start a 12 step program for getting free from religion and philosophy.

I can't go a day without applying meaning to things, without building up concepts, without struggling with whether or not I believe a certain a way of thinking, whether or not I'm interested enough in my spirituality.

I am caught up in a drug called speculation. It's a drug because there's no cessation to the hunger for more and more. There's no end to this need to find out what the capital T Truth is.

What is turning me on to Buddhism though (and this is where I need clarification) is that there might be a way out from my clinging, striving, pseudo-philosopher's mind.

Is Buddhism a set of concepts that helps us escape from concepts?

Hi Gerrard,

Personally I think its good to just relax a little and gently take one step at a time with your investigations....

This talk 'Thoughts' from Ajahn Amaro might be helpful :

http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/4/talk/9/


"We don't have to get rid of thinking in order to meditate. There is no problem with thinking in and of itself, but only in how we sometimes relate to it.

This talk explores the role and nature of conceptual thought, how to relate to it skillfully, as well as acknowledging the value and right use of reflective thinking."


This also might be worth reading:

'Listening to Thoughts' by Ajahn Sumedho:

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Aj...o_Thoughts.htm

with kind wishes


Aloka

Thanks,

I'm taking the time to download that while I give the second link a read.

It might be a well timed response because I recently was impressed by someone on another forums their feelings that we should work towards ceasing all thoughts.

I can enact the muscle of my brain that stops thoughts - but it seems like such an antithesis to the spirit of mindfulness and acceptance of life that I've been finding in a lot of eastern thought.

I realize I can't stop my terribly rookie philosophical thoughts and I realize I like being confused and struggling with concepts. It just gets tiring.

You don't need to try to stop thoughts - just gently recognise that they come

and go....

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

Gerrardthor - let's consider my below question carefully.
You are suffered from concepts, or you are suffered from your desire to escape from concepts (and such desire is not fulfilled)?

Buddhism does not teach to escape, but teach to be courageous to understand and deal with sufferings wisely.

This question immediately brings to mind the approach known as Prasangika-Madhyamaka, which uses the method of reductio ad absurdum to uproot all views without replacing them with another. Madhyamaka is a school of Indian-Buddhist logic spearheaded by Nagarjuna, but with roots in the earlier texts as well. Reading Nagarjuna and referring to the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata in addition to various other discourses such as the Lokayatika Sutta (SN 12.48) have helped me loosen my grip on metaphysical concepts and speculative views.

Hi Abhaya,

We try to keep things simple and focused on the historical Buddha's core teachings in the Beginners forum, so that people who are completely new to Buddhism don't get overwhelmed by different tradition-specific responses from other members. Not keeping to the basics has resulted in feelings of confusion and being overwhelmed with too much information too soon from some of our new members in the past.

(please read admin and moderator guidelines at the beginning of the topic list for the Beginners forum)

Many thanks and with kind wishes,

Aloka

The Atthakavagga belongs to the core teachings of the historical Buddha. I would recommend for gerrardthor to start there before moving to complex material such as the work of Nagarjuna.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...x.html#vagga-4

I do not see speculation as a toxic drug unless it is really debasing you.

I have speculated on philosophy and religion for many decades and have cetainly felt frustrated.
On the credit side I cannot see my self locking into any ism.

That said I find Buddhism quite nice, in the main........http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/cool.gif

I think Buddhism is a set of concepts that helps you understand the reality, so you no longer need to speculate.

I enjoy the drug of speculation. I enjoy the confusion that gives way to clarity then recedes back into confusion.

I think I was expressing with this thread that the speculation gets tiring sometimes and I just wish I wasn't so analytical all the time.

Yeah. I've got a couple books I'm going through with selections from the Pali Canon.

After that I've got a few sites that lead you by the hand through what should be studied as a beginner.

I'm basically too full of concepts most of time. I don't know if it's suffering as much as it's a struggle.

I don't know if I'm seeking escape as much as I'm seeking a source of rest.

Even if reality was explained to me, I still think I'd figure out a way to speculate about it.

Perhaps so. But in Buddhism, it is not about the explanation of the concepts, (Now a days, you can find explanation of these concepts everywhere.) but about 'empirically experience/understand' these concepts.

I'm not trying to be contradictory. I just want clarification.

I didn't know the goals of Buddhism was to understand the nature of reality. I thought this was left to speculation and has nothing to do with cessation of suffering and reaching enlightenment.

I personally, yes I would love to have empirically experienced truths rather than truths that simply make sense in theory.

I am practicing and trying and I am putting faith into the Buddhist teachings I'm learning while I practice what I learn.

Thanks for your input!

It's about understanding certain aspects of the nature of reality at least. The Buddha admitted that certain things are speculative and cannot be answered. Suffering is ended through the understanding of suffering.

Actually, Buddhism already gave you the answers to the nature of reality (at least those most involved with human natures.) Unfortunately, knowing the answers on the intellectual level is not much of help. You have to prove to yourself (i.e. goes through the derivation of the answers yourself) that the answers provided by Buddha are true. If you can do that, you are said to have reached 'enlightenment' and no longer have to 'suffer.'

How do you derive the answers yourself? Well, Buddha already showed the way and there are numerous Buddhist texts/traditions that offered many other approaches, but the concepts are all really similar, only differ in details and emphasis.

What are the answers to the nature of reality according to Buddhism? They are simply: sunyata, paticcasamuppāda, anicca, and anatta. Others might want to add a few mores, but I think everything else can be derived from these 4 concepts. Actually, you can even derive anicca and anatta from sunyata and paticcasamuppāda, but it is easier to call them out separately.

Hi Gerrardthor

This resource from the Buddhanet site might be worth reading :


http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa2.htm


kind regards

Aloka

Hi ... It seems to me that the nature of reality, seeing things as they are, is often beyond concepts.
The whole philosophy of " emptiness " ( meant in a broad sense ) is attempting to convey experience in meditation rather than developing a theory of the nature of reality; any concept or theory that I have encountered thus far presents some obstacle or big flaw to seeing the brief snatches of that nature which I have found.
In 12 step groups I have heard the term analysis paralysis bandied about ... and I get what this means.