[agrismhig]

Thanks guys, if anyone has anything to add as well thatd be awesome. I really appreaciate all of this!!!

[freediscountplanrrxip]

Even though these things are not really "mine" yet when reflecting on what is it that keeps my heart pumping, what is it that keep my blood flowing, I am at a loss.

I think if I knew what aggregate the subconscious, (responsible for such things) belonged to, I could possibly understand it better. Is it part of the body aggregate, the consciousness aggregate?

Hi sonofzeus,

Possibly what you are reflecting on is your body's autonomic nervous system, which I wouldn't describe as "the subconscious. "

A description of the aggregates is as follows:


Five Khandas (Pali) (Skr. Skandhas): or Five Aggregates, that is, the five components of an intelligent being, or psychological analysis of the mind:

(1) Matter or Form (rupa) - the physical form responded to the five organs of senses, i.e., eye, ear, nose, tongue and body;

(2) Sensation or Feeling (vedana) - the feeling in reception of physical things by the senses through the mind;

(3) Perception and/or cognition (Pali, sanna) (Skr, sanjna) - the functioning of mind in distinguishing appearances;

(4) Volition or Mental Formation (Pali, sankara) (Skr, samskara) - habitual action, i.e., a conditioned response to the object of experience, whether it is good or evil, you like or dislike;

(5) Consciousness (Pali, vinnana) (Skr, vijnana) - the mental faculty in regard to perception, cognition and experience.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...lossary_fk.htm

[byncnombmub]

Would an enlightened person experience the fruits of kamma by killing someone?

Hi sonofzeus,
Welcome to BWB. I checked your thread out as it was titled "Help with meditation".

I haven't seen a single mention of meditation in this thread thus far which I find a bit odd.

Questions like the one above are all about the mind doing what it normally does. What they seek, is intellectual and factual - like what time a train is due to arrive etc, although they accord themselves the importance of 'spiritual enquiry'.

What is different, is meditation. This is where you will find the solution to the contradictions and complexities you are seeking to resolve.

My question is, what meditation are you currently practicing?

Let's talk meditation and see if we can help

Namaste
kris

[TOD4wDTQ]

Thanks Aloka-D that IS what I am talking about, the beating of the heart and such. I am aware of the five aggregates, I just dont know which one the "subconscious" would fit into. Would it be part of the body aggregate? Thanks.

Srivijaya, you are abosolutley right. This is where I am having so much trouble. I am a philosopher and deep thinker by nature, and have trouble turning the mind off! One thing I identify with is the mind. The reason I am asking these questions is to maybe get some more knowledge on how these things are "not self." I am trying to let go, and it has been really hard. REALLY HARD. I didnt realize how much I cling and grasp until now. Thanks

[hechicxxrr]

Hi sonofzeus,

As I mentioned previously, internal body functions are not classed as the 'subconscious'. I suppose they must relate to the body aggregate but I've never really thought about it before to be honest !

Ok lets leave the aggregates now and move on to the subject of meditation, as Kris has already suggested.

[MiniBoy]

I am a philosopher and deep thinker by nature, and have trouble turning the mind off! One thing I identify with is the mind.

I can relate to that.
The reason I am asking these questions is to maybe get some more knowledge on how these things are "not self." Well, there's tons and tons of stuff from many traditions out there and you could spend years looking at it. It may sound shocking but anatta is not ultimately a doctrine or a metaphysical position - it is a realisation of reality, one which is unlikely to occur without meditative training.

I am trying to let go, and it has been really hard. REALLY HARD. I didnt realize how much I cling and grasp until now. Thanks You are trying to 'convince' yourself into letting go and in my experience there will never be a good intellectual argument that has the staying power to effect this outcome.
You can't let go if you don't discover what is holding on. Meditation will reveal what clinging is about and its release. Trying to resolve this with the intellect is like expecting a disease to cure itself.

We can talk ourselves into all kinds of moods and positions but they are impermanent and bound to fail. Direct, naked experience is the key to liberation. Buddha discovered anatta, he didn't think it up.

Check out the meditation thread I've started for some great accounts.
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...891-Meditation

[espabamar]

One thing I have noticed is how often craving and clinging arises. I have also noticed my wandering mind. How long are you guys able to sit while meditating, I have noticed that happy feelings arise more when I am lying down, of course I must be careful since this can be addicting.

With respect to the aggregates, I meditate upon then when I go about my everyday life, I understan that clinging to these thing creates a concept of self. I am really trying to understand the concept of no-self hence my question about the subconscious. I always considered the subconscious to be my soul or self, since this is what is keeping the body alive and going. I am trying to understand or realize that the subconscious is not self, which is why I ask if anyone knows what aggregate it would fall under, or if anyone could explain how the subconscious is not self in another way that would be delightful.

What things do you guys tend to cling to? Also i have a problem calming down my mind when I begin, does anyone else deal with this?

[AlexBrith]

You seem to be holding on to what you call "the subconscious" sonofzeus, and I suggest you just let go of that for the moment. There is also no concept of a 'soul' in Buddhism.

Did you listen to the talk I recommended in #20 ?

As for not-self (anatta) I suggest reading this:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Bo...nd_Rebirth.pdf


In the Study links section there's a link to some Buddhist meditation videos for learning how to meditate.

kind regards.

Aloka

[intorkercet]

I always considered the subconscious to be my soul or self, since this is what is keeping the body alive and going. I am trying to understand or realize that the subconscious is not self, which is why I ask if anyone knows what aggregate it would fall under, or if anyone could explain how the subconscious is not self in another way that would be delightful.

Almost everyone, unless they are in a state of (somewhat deep) "meditative absorption" (or perhaps, a coma) is experiencing the sensation of "me" or a self on a conscious or subconscious level. You sense not only a feeling of upright balance in space (not being dizzy), but a feeling of being wide awake, or sleepy, and there are all sorts of sensory things that constantly remind us of where we are and what we are doing. There are people who have what are often called 'sensory issues' where the brain processes sensory data in a distorted or magnified way, so that soft fabric feels painful and so forth. Even if your sensory processors are not distorting things, they are still processing and you are aware of it subconsciously. You know it when things are not what they should be, as when your foot falls asleep. And of course, there is all the stuff that we are aware of, like back pain and leg pain that most meditators have experienced.

As far as what aggregate this subtle awareness falls under, I am not sure there is one specific aggregate. There might be. I'd look it up, but I always give my books away.

Now, in response to the other part of your question, when Buddhists talk about no self, or no soul or whatever, they are generally talking about no "permanent self". Permanent means unchanging and unaffected by any other causes that would arise and cease. it's like a photograph of your face (the photograph itself might age, but the person in the picture wouldn't).

Even though, when you look into the mirror, you feel like you are seeing the same person you always have, because there is a sort of string of memory, not only has your physical body changed but everything created by thoughts, every notion of "me" has also changed and is constantly changing. A lama told me that in fact your mind changes faster than everything else.

it is interesting that you say "I always considered the subconscious to be my soul or self, since this is what is keeping the body alive and going." because while you may be right, I don't think this is really the Buddhist view of things. No permanent self , no "me" also suggests that there is not one continuous string of thought, as it might seem, but rather
(I am going to break these lines up)
a stream of ever-so-slightly-changing events
which happen in extremely rapid succession,
from which the sensation of a permanent self arises,
appearing as what we lump together under the general term 'consciousness'
in direct response to the various sensory stimuli we encounter constantly.

So, you could say that the subconscious is what poses as a 'self' but that in fact it is not a single solitary thing at all, but a quick sequence of interactions with one's immediate surroundings.

To get just a faint idea of how fast this sequence of events occurs, simply turn your head and look around the room. Now, consider how many tens of thousands of slight variations of color and shadow, ranges of of depth, and 'recognizable' images and objects you just processed, in motion, in a split second, some you were aware of and some you weren't. With each of those comes a sensory input, perahps a 'khanda' ('skandha') which reinforces the illusion of a permanent "me". It seems like one continuous string of thought, like the thread running through a string of beads. But really, it is a more like the beads, one following the next, but each separate.

It is no wonder we have to struggle with calming down the mind!

As far as what keeps the body going, what kind of life-force or chi or whatever, it is also a combination of many things. I don't think it's just one sole (soul -ha ha) thing.

[Zjohkrbi]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOJAIO!!! So from my understanding your saying that the subconscious and or life force or soul is also a combination of many things, arising and ceasing so quickly that one mistakingly thinks it is one permanent thing?

[SpyRemo]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOJAIO!!! So from my understanding your saying that the subconscious and or life force or soul is also a combination of many things, arising and ceasing so quickly that one mistakingly thinks it is one permanent thing?

Preeeeeeety close. I am saying that in Buddhism there is no "thing" which is a soul or life force. There is lots of stuff going on including conscious and subconscious mental activity that we lump together and people call it whatever they want.

It's like talking about the ocean. Really, there is no single thing you can call "ocean". It's a collection of factors: water, salt, fish, depth, wave movement, tides and so forth. Put it all together and all you have, still, is water, salt, fish, depth, wave movement, tides and so forth.

But we call it "ocean" because we are viewing it from the beach, from dry land. To us it looks like one big thing. Likewise, we tend to think of 'consciousness' and 'life' and 'energy' as whole things but really, each is made of many causes, which the Buddha pointed out, temporarily come together and then split apart again. We experience 'dukkha' or suffering because we perceive things as solid when in fact they aren't anything solid at all.

This doesn't mean that in a relative sense they are not producing a cause and effect situation. A nightmare can still make you wake up in a sweat even though it is imaginary.

At first, some people find the idea of existence as being like a whirlwind somewhat frightening, because they think there is nothing to hold onto. But that is because we have a conditioned point of view. Another way to look at existence is as an infinitely possible situation, and there is really a lot of freedom in that.

[WapSaibian]

Right thats what I was saying there is no actual "thing" called the subconscious, or life force, but people think it is an actual thing because of the constant arising and ceasing of factors which move at such a high speed.

[Eromereorybig]

Why not assume that there is such a thing and then precede to investigate within meditation?

[Immampdah]

Right thats what I was saying there is no actual "thing" called the subconscious, or life force, but people think it is an actual thing because of the constant arising and ceasing of factors which move at such a high speed.

This is still seeking an intellectual understanding ...... there are plenty of online discussions where practitioners discuss using intellectual argument and attempt to prove concepts .... indeed it can be backed up by what the Buddha was reported to have said in the Pali Canon .... to experience is different, as srivijaya suggests moving forward is to investigate yourself within meditation and, as I have found, to begin, and to keep on, rudimentary intellectualism is required and suggested by all traditions and teachers I have heard.

[evalayCap]

Why not assume that there is such a thing and then precede to investigate within meditation?

The automatic tendency IS to assume there is such a thing as "me". No effort is needed to do that. Just ask a baby who has had his candy taken away.

[orbidewa]

Yes. It all has to do with one's subjective point of view and subjective points ovf view are generally rooted in the idea of "me" and "mine" and so the cycle begins: An object is perceived, therefore a subject (the perceiver) is experienced, and so on.

[bonyclayd]

The automatic tendency IS to assume there is such a thing as "me". No effort is needed to do that. Just ask a baby who has had his candy taken away.

Exactly, that's why I'm not into intellectually negating it. Let it be and take some time to investigate what's really going on in there.

[PharmaDrMan]

intellectual understanding and direct experience both play an important role, and the emphasis on each depends on the person. For me, it is similar to learning to drive a car. You have to learn what it is you are doing, but you also have to actually sit behind the wheel and put your foot on the gas pedal. Both are important. Without at least some intellectual understanding, meditation can be somewhat less effective. But without practice, intellectualizing is just academic brain activity.

[MIBgirlsXXL]

Exactly, that's why I'm not into intellectually negating it. Let it be and take some time to investigate what's really going on in there.

That's pretty good advice, imho. Saying "it is" or "it isn't" usually seems to run us around in circles.

Good luck and thanks for practicing,
Keith

[CHyLmxDr]

When talking about the subconscious, I guess I really mean the nervous system, what is responsible for breathing and such, I guess the understanding is the same right fojiao? This nervous system is made up of many things like we have discussed above on the soul and such...? I also sent you a message fojiao.


On another note, is anyone able to observe what goes on within them while doing other activities? I am only able to do this while I am still. Anybody who practices Zen who can shed some light on this maybe?