hi RLP

imo, the statement above requires some very serious examination & introspection, thus i post again

whatever people do in life, why do they do it?

for example, why do we eat? to be free from hunger pains?

why do we listen to music? to feel pleasure & relaxation?

why do people have sex? to be free or find relaxation from the pressures of sexual agitation & craving?

why do we work? to earn money to be free from the oppression of hunger & exposure to the climatic elements?

is not EVERYTHING done in life to be free from suffering; to find relaxation from suffering?

is there ANYTHING done in life that is not for the resolution of some state of suffering?

is not Nibbana, the final peace, the resolution & fulfilment of every human aspiration?

with metta

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/peace.gif

But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. (Anguttara Nikaya 111:65)

Stephen Batchelor quotes the above when he discusses his own agnostic stance towards rebirth, and also sums up......Failure to summon forth the courage to risk a nondogmatic and nonevasive stance on such crucial existential matters can also blur our ethical vision. If our actions in the world are to stem from an encounter with what is central in life, they must be unclouded by either dogma or prevarication. Agnosticism is no excuse for indecision. If anything, it is a catalyst for action; for in shifting concern away from a future life and back to the present, it demands an ethics of empathy rather than a metaphysics of hope and fear.

Hi tariki,

As we are a learning community, could you give URL links and the actual sources of any quotes you make, please. (eg the above Stephen Batchelor quote)

Thanks and with kind wishes,

Aloka

Anguttara Nikaya 111:65 (the Kalama Sutta) offers a number of views and not solely the single view Stephen has chosen to emphasise

the Buddha taught in ways to encourage whatever wholesome view was suitable for the individual

imo

kind regards http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/peace.gif

BTW, the quote from "Buddhism Without Beliefs", page 38.

Not my case Frank, there is no need afterlife believes to behave. To behave is because to keep mind peaceful with the world.

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

We can also see many examples of people who believe in an afterlife but do not behave -- think of the carnage during the medieval era in Europe, or more recently in Rwanda and the Balkans.

Another news for me... http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/shock.gif

Seems I am loosing my innocence about Buddhism/spiritual path of deliverance... http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...milies/sad.gif

Another 2 Zen'ts:

The True Path

Just before Ninakawa passed away the Zen master Ikkyu visited him: "Shall I lead you on?" Ikkyu asked.

Ninakawa replied: "I came here alone and I go alone. What help could you be to me?"

Ikkyu answered: "If you think you really come and go, that is your delusion. Let me show you the path on which there is no coming and no going."

With this words, Ikkyu had revealed the path so clearly that Ninakawa smiled and passed away.

Zen Stories,
Zen Flesh, Zen Bones http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/hands.gif

My apologies, and many thanks for your gentle nudge. I will try to do this in future.

(I can see that Lazy Eyes has kindly provided the link in this case)

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

Element, yes, I think the Anguttara Kikaya is quite large. I sought to relate the particular words quoted with Stephen Batchelor's own viewpoint, which has been known to cause controversy on occasion.

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

I think this is a potentially dangerous view. If your behavior is based on the hope of being reborn favorably and/or the fear of being reborn unfavorably then you not realize Nibbana. An elightened being would behave properly without thought of seeking reward or avoiding punishment. Practice without gaining ideas and without fear.

We are energy, be it positive or negative, our physical beings are made of energy.

Energy is never created nor destroyed, it may take different forms, change forms, but it always exists.

Hence in that theory of thought, we never cease to exist. One form or another, we/our energy, live eternally.
Be it as a physical being, or simply energy in the universe existing as a free "being".


In Loving Kindness, The Seeker

This is true. However, is there any sort of consciousness that moves from one lifetime to the next that it may even be possible to remember past lives?

This my friend is my belief, for what it's worth.
We all have talents, correct?
How did we get them?

Is it from past experiences in past existences?

I believe it is. I think we/our energy carries on the knowledge we've gained in each existence to further our growth in the direction we choose to head.

As I said this is really just my opinion.

In Loving Kindness, The Seeker

hi

the relevent discourse is as follows:

kind regards

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/peace.gif

If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world. This is the first assurance he acquires.

But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble. This is the second assurance he acquires.

If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me? This is the third assurance he acquires.

But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects. This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

Kalama Sutta

So one gains "assurance", future life or not. I suppose it comes down to exactly what sort of "assurance" we are interested in.

Hi rlp7786,

Regarding the lengthy previous post, please always give the URL links for the various quotes above and don't make them too long, please

We wish to avoid any possibility of copyright issues.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...lies/hands.gif

Ah, you may wish to remove the post then. Because I copied these from a book. As far as I know, there may not be copies of these things on the internet. Im only using passages from the books though and not whole books or chapters. I believe it would fall into fair usage law, but if not, by all means remove them. Unfortunately, I cant really continue this particular discussion any further without the above information in that post. But do what you must, I dont want you to have any issues either. Id just like to say that my withdrawal from the post (if nescessary) isnt a concession to other opinions and views.

Most books usually have a paragraph somewhere in the front pages which states something like this:

"No part of this book may be reproduced in any form or by any means without permission from the publisher"

You might like to reply to Element's post to you using your own words instead of several quotes from different books, possibly with the addition of some internet links you've found to support your statements.

You can also edit or delete your own posts within a 12 hr watershed.

.