Dhamma/Dharma without rebirth beliefs?
 

I think that everyone who studies Dhamma alters it to fit what they are comfortable with. Oddly, I believe that rebirth demonstrates anatta.

I don't think Buddha was pandering to metaphysical theories. I'm sure he merely reported what he experienced. What anyone else does with that, is another matter http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...ilies/wink.gif

I don't know about that, as "belief" can have all kinds of unexpected side effects. Trying to reconcile rebirth with anatta in a conceptual way has resulted in many heated debates.

Any other principles? I guess it depends how each individual plays it out for themselves. Based on the belief, some may gain a particular understanding of karma, suffering or impermanence.

Why think of Dhamma as a defined doctrine?

Dhamma or natural truth will always be what it is.

But individual humans beings will make whatever they want from it.

Dhamma as the law of nature is not necessarily the same as Dhamma as religion.

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Absolutely never.

The Buddha taught about the end of suffering & rebirth view is the manifestion of suffering.


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Opinions are fine. But when you find a sutta where Buddha discussed rebirth & anatta together, please tell me about it.

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It has been said to me in an offline discussion that dukkha is ultimately manifested in the suffering of repeated becoming in the round of rebirths, and if one dismisses the idea of rebirth, the Four Noble Truths lose much of their depth and scope.

Ooops ! Must be the "Hell Realms "ahead for me then ! Apart from doing a month's intensive Bardo retreat about 25 years ago, the subject of rebirth has been less and less in my thoughts (well actually not in my thoughts at all) as I deal with what's occuring in the present.

I think it is implicit. When reviewing past lives he either saw a 'self' which was reborn, or an impersonal (selfless) process.

Well, that's my "opinion" at leasthttp://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...ilies/wink.gif

This is absolutly correct... Dhamma is about life, life facts and a deep understanding of it. This understanding is the true overcome of suffering and it can just be achived thorugh right view.

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I can take this point Aloka dear,

I feel rebirth is not just a metaphorical issue. From Tibetan buddhism this is a real fact. But as I left Tibetan and embraced Zen, as Aloka has told, being rebirthfor me a litteral aspect of Buddhist doctrine, I think that the core aspect of Dharma is the present and the here and now doctrine, but this do not mean that rebirth is just a fairy tale even when it has been less an less in my thought too.

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It has to dear Andy, but arround this cultural ornamentation we will found ever the core aspect of Dharma and that is what counts. Cultural ornamentations gives, in anthropological terms, a kind of fitness and adoption "tool" or process so that Buddhism core teachings can be understood for any culture.

I have ever felt, as an anthropologist, that being Tibetans a very religuous culture do to the previously Bö religion, buddhism adapted in such a way that Buddhism there has a very intense flavour of religiousity. The same for japan... sometimes during the seshin I took I felt I was surrounded by a kind of martial art doctrine... http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...ies/tongue.gif

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The essenctial principles cant change with cultural traits... In anthropology we learn to introduce knowledge (also knowledge understood as a new technology) dress up with their cultural traits but the core aspect cant change. This procedure its part of the reaserch project with the inmates introducing the four noble truths and the eightfold noble path not telling them it is Buddhism with all the cultural aspects of it but a way to overcome suffering mental states in their lifes with examples of their daily life in prission. And it is working well. Also our Roshi is very enthusiastic working time to time in this.

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Good topic dear friend!

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Just practice sila and samadhi, and be patient.

Either this life is all you've got, in which case you'd better get cracking, or this isn't all you've got, in which case you'd better get cracking.

To dispense or not to dispense? Either way, the "belief" itself will neither help nor hinder samhadi. Years of "belief" is worth less than two minutes in Jhana. I would say that anyone can comfortably sit on the fence with this and wait to find out for themselves.

Attainment follows from practice.http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...lies/hands.gif

Personally I don't think its necessary to believe in rebirth in order to be a Buddhist. However there are others who would disagree.

So what ? Just practice.

You jump ahead unnecessarily here by changing the word 'question' to 'dispense'. If you don't have an answer yet, then no matter how uncomfortable you get you simply have to accept that you don't have an answer yet... and you keep on the Path.

My view may be different from others, Gerry. I would say don't dwell on the past or speculate about the future - just practice Dharma and be aware and mindful with the present.

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Imo, the concept of "rebirth" was merely skillful means and a conceptual tool that was employed in order to help people see the agitating/combusting nature of existence...becoming/ unbecoming...generation/degeneration - that is, the patterns, cycles, the physics of the phenomenal world - and to paint a vivid picture of cause and effect within this physic and ultimately empty environment. This conceptual tool has taken on a purely materialistic literal meaning in this materialistic literalistic time.

A surface reading of the teachings gave a much needed moral/social structure to average people, and a glimmer of reality...mostly it kept them from creating hells on Earth and in their own mind/body.

A deep reading of the teachings preserved a far reaching complex understanding of the phenomenal world (physics, astronomy, ecosystems management, social management, physical and mental health, protection of the genome, etc...) and our relationship with it for those that had the mental capacity and training to understand at this level.

The confusion about this conceptual tool in our own time exists because the deeper reading and understanding of the teachings has become lost - the teachings have become decontextualized and without the broad deep context, the surface has deteriorated into a narcissistic bandaid of self focused so-called "spiritual" masturbation techniques. The decontextualized, literalized surface reading doesn't ring true to a population that is fairly well educated but who haven't woken up fully from the unconscious mind-numbing cloud of religiosity that pervades all of modern thought (the lingering effects of institutionalized and deeply internalized Christian theology)...this state of limbo creates much confusion on the one hand, and entrenched belief on the other - both states of mind that the Dharma was originally intended to dissolve.