SN 12.2
 

Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.

Analysis of Dependent Co-arising This should not be taken literally as "cessation of consciousness" because by eliminating ignorance the Buddha did not lose consciousness. IMO, the conditionality should be

Mental Fabrications -> Tainted consciousness

Mental Fabrications (or fabricators as some like to call it) would be things like mental perceptions. My question is, why isn't the sutta clear on that?

What I mean is this statement is usually misunderstood by beginners:

Does this sound like a rant... lol

What are we if we are not conscious? Unconscious, I guess. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif Maybe the sutta is referring to some other definition of consciousness than the usual.

like what? please elaborate more

I don't know, sorry, and I don't want to mislead you by speculating. I need to know more in this direction myself. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

This should not be taken literally as "cessation of consciousness" because by eliminating ignorance the Buddha did not lose consciousness. IMO, the conditionality should be

Mental Fabrications -> Tainted consciousness

Mental Fabrications (or fabricators as some like to call it) would be things like mental perceptions. My question is, why isn't the sutta clear on that? It is not the sutta that is unclear, but the translation. Think of DO as a Garbage-In, Garbage Out model that explains the process by which ignorance (as the Buddha defined it) influences a person's mental processes in ways that lead to suffering.

It can be telescoped down in many ways, and parts of it can be demonstrated in chunks, such as the "eighteen elements" or the "thirty elements". Compacted down to its simplest form, we can look at it thus:

Ignorance --> The Organism --> Suffering

And, conversely:

Absence of Ignorance --> The Organism --> No Suffering

"Cessation" is a poor translation for "nirodho". It means "cooling down", and the analogy is that of something that is on fire, that is burning. With the cooling of the fire of ignorance, there is the cooling of that fire in the sankharas. And so on.

Upaya Sutta may help here.

http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/grin.gif

Thanks for the sutta reference. This is good:

Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible even better:

If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world

True that. Which is why I said:

Ignorance -> fabricated conciousness
wisdom -> cognition of things as they truly are, Contended and stable

But the conditionality between links is commonly understood such that by eliminating A, B no longer exists.

How do you explain "The Organism" btw.