Absolutely, spot on. It's for this very reason that many dry insight people choose to reject Jhana and refer to the practice as a 'deep state of concentration' rather than as an 'abiding'.

IMHO this is what Buddha had already tried under his previous teachers before he recalled the Jhana he had experienced as a child. He hit on something very different and began to teach it.

I have also read warnings in Tibetan and Hindu sources about blanking out in this 'switch-off' meditation and the example he cites is really like being under heavy morphine.

Hi clw,
When you say completely abandoned, do you mean they never return or that the meditator is able to at least let them go for the duration of the meditation?

I've come across the idea which states one needs to be free of all taints before one can access Jhana. My objection has always been, if that were so, we wouldn't need Jhana or Buddhist practice any more. By definition, the path has to be for those who are still developing.

Once abandoned the mind is no longer "clouded" and the jhana is the natural state that follows. In my opinion the biggest problem is mediators wanting to attain jhanas. Absolutely spot on there.

Namaste

Thanks sukitlek,
I'm not sure whether you think that shutting off is a good thing or a bad thing?
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...lies/hands.gif

I also have that feeling.

No good no bad, Not direct relate to vipassana. Like a exercise of mind.
If we could not when we are arahunt. We are a dry-visioned Arahant (Sukkhavipassaka) or liberation through wisdom (Pannàvimutti).
If we could, when we are arahunt. We are a jhana Arahant (jhanalabha) or deliverance of mind (Cetovimutti).

There are more detail of Cetovimutti but IMO we are not this type.

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...lies/hands.gif

A very important aspect to be considered Craig dear,

Just two cents...

I practice zazen. I am still not ready for shikantaza but I do not find fundamental differences between Jhanas and zazen. In some way, zazen are like Jhanas without wanting to attain Jhanas. We are not so worried about steps and levels...

If I misunderstood something, feedback is wellcome...

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...lies/hands.gif

They are only temporally abandoned, some say suppressed but i feel this conveys too much of the idea of averting and destroying them, which is craving for non-existence

This is why jhanas are only means to nibbana

If we were free from all taints then there would be nibbana


metta

Hi,

I totally agree with that.

Collectedness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention goes up to the realm of nothingness.

In order to get known to the functioning of the hindrances you need to meet them. With that absorbtion concentration jhanas, you won't be able since your sense aren't working anymore. That is pre-buddhist brahman meditation. While you are in such an absorbed state, hindrances won't come up. That can be a pleasant abiding. But when you return, the hindrances return also and you have had no chance to learn how they work.

Have a look at this: http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/mn-111.htm

Metta, always,
Mirco http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...ilies/grin.gif

Absolutely correct. Well said micro.

Absolutely right clw. Aversion, itself, would create an environment which would hinder Jhana.

So, now I'd like to get to the interesting bit, but first lets just have a very quick scan at the points we've discussed:

1. Jhana is a valid and very important method taught by the Buddha. Dry insight proponents may not be all that keen but it's there in sutta after sutta whether they like it or not.

2. It isn't a complete shutting down of all the senses and awareness. So we reject the fallacy of Jhana Deep.

3. You don't need to be a paragon of virtue to be able to practice these teachings - Buddha taught them as a means to help us.

4. Trying to suppress hinderances and craving Jhana are counterproductive.

That said, how do people here actually practice their meditation? Do they use the breath, Kasina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina or something else?

What experiences have you had and what pitfalls have you encountered?

I'm hoping to generate some real-life tips and discussion.http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...lies/hands.gif

Assuming that there are other posters here who practice it that is. If not, do you do anything similar?

Well, never fear Sri - I do, so I'll get the ball rolling with some basic issues I faced when I started checking out the various instructions on anapanasati.

Firstly, I was unsure of quite how to deal with 'mindfulness of breathing'. This can be interpreted in many ways. Does one, for example, aim to pin ones awareness to a particular point; tip of the nose, somewhere in front of the chest or even follow the breath in and out? Does one count the breaths in any way?

I'd be interested to get feedback on things members have experimented with and the experiences they gained.

And how do we judge success? Is it a case of retaining the object for a certain length of time to the exclusion of everything else? Are thoughts suppressed in any way?

Any thoughts there?

Okay, you're sitting comfortably and closing (or not closing, which?) your eyes. You're wondering if you are hindrance-free enough to get anywhere with this and there's some kind of noise going on...

...or something like that! What do you do?

Firstly, I was unsure of quite how to deal with 'mindfulness of breathing'. This can be interpreted in many ways. Does one, for example, aim to pin ones awareness to a particular point; tip of the nose, somewhere in front of the chest or even follow the breath in and out? Does one count the breaths in any way?
It doesnt matter where you focus attention, its the mind your working with so it can be done with focus on nose, chest or just breathing in general. Myself I find I just focus on the breath coming in and out and the various sensations around that. However this is the way that works best for me, others it could be just nose etc

Counting the breaths is just a device to help beginners concentrate on the breath. The main practice begins when one is just aware of breathing and begins to develop an uninterrupted stream of mindfulness. Problem with counting is that, while being good for beginners, is caught up in thinking about the breath instead of being mindful of the breath



I'd be interested to get feedback on things members have experimented with and the experiences they gained.

And how do we judge success? Is it a case of retaining the object for a certain length of time to the exclusion of everything else? Are thoughts suppressed in any way?
One insight that helped me develop my practice was that one doesnt use the mind to search for the breath to be aware of it. Instead one notices the breath arise in awareness and stays with that (kinda hard to put into words)


There is no "success" or "failure" in meditation since every experience helps teach you in some way. However I would say ones practice is developing well when one begins to be aware in the present moment more and more easily, just noting and observing dhammas rise and fall and when one gets to know and abandon the hindrances


metta

Thanks for the reply clw. I do that too as it seems to work best.

You make a good point regarding being 'mindful' of the breath rather than 'thinking' about it.
One insight that helped me develop my practice was that one doesnt use the mind to search for the breath to be aware of it. Instead one notices the breath arise in awareness and stays with that (kinda hard to put into words) I guess I know what you mean. In my case, it's a primarily physical event - aware of the breath's effect on the body as a whole. Not just focussed on one area.

Have you ever had experience with any kind of "Kasina"/ sign (I use that term very loosely)? I have found that the actual things themselves can induce release; a body of water, flames of a fire, bare soil and spacious skies. I have an unfounded pet theory that this is what Buddha meant, rather than a manufactured disk of some kind.

Namaste

My own idea is that they are Hindu meditations bent to the purposes of the Dhamma. This is how I account for the fact that despite being canonical, these sorts of meditations are also noted in the Canon to be (in one way or another) less beneficial than anapanasati, having limits on their usefulness in samatha practice and being wholly unable to support a vipassana practice.

Interesting Sobeh. Do you have links to any of that. I'm curious as to why they are less beneficial.

No I have never used them or experienced them in the way you describe. Generally I stick to the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. I used to practice the four sublime states but have not done this for some time


metta

From that Henepola Gunaratana explains in MIPE, and I think this also concurs with what Buddhadasa writes in his analysis of the APS Sutta, this seems to be a mental impression or image that arises with the breath at a certain point. There is a point at which I get a mental impression of a violin bow being drawn against the string in concert with the sound and the feel of the breath, in and out, back and forth.


Here's what Gunaratana says in MIPE:

As you continue your practice your mind and body becomes so light that you may feel as if you are floating in the air or on water. You may even feel that your body is springing up into the sky. When the grossness of your in-and-out breathing has ceased, subtle in-and-out breathing arises. This very subtle breath is your objective focus of the mind. This is the sign of concentration. This first appearance of a sign-object will be replaced by more and more subtle sign-object. This subtlety of the sign can be compared to the sound of a bell. When a bell is struck with a big iron rod, you hear a gross sound at first. As the sound fades away, the sound becomes very subtle. Similarly the in-and-out breath appears at first as a gross sign. As you keep paying bare attention to it, this sign becomes very subtle. But the consciousness remains totally focused on the rims of the nostrils. Other meditation objects become clearer and clearer, as the sign develops. But the breath becomes subtler and subtler as the sign develops. Because of this subtlety, you may not notice the presence of your breath. Don't get disappointed thinking that you lost your breath or that nothing is happening to your meditation practice. Don't worry. Be mindful and determined to bring your feeling of breath back to the rims of your nostrils. This is the time you should practice more vigorously, balancing your energy, faith, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.

The main thrust of the idea comes from The Origin of Buddhist Meditation by Alexander Wynne. I had a .pdf of the book but I can't seem to find it - Google Books has enough to give you the gist. Check pages 26, 28+.