[itaspCatCriny]

Again I think Toyota are the perfect counter-example. They had the double decker diffuser before Brawn did. And lots of money. But it did them little good. Williams had a double diffuser from the start of the season too; it was clearly no guarantee of success.

IIRC Toyota were the last of the three to join the double diffuser party, they hired a Honda employee who told them about what they had planned for 2009. Williams decided to use a double diffuser independently.

People keep talking about Toyota's budget but actually it was quite reasonable and wasn't as big as McLaren or Ferrari's, at least once one off costs had been paid off which included bringing their facilities up to proper F1 standards with a first class windtunnel etc etc.

I think the underlying reason Brawn fell back was lack of money to continue developing the car. If they had decent funding, they could have been developing other aspects of the car while others were scrambling to catch up with the diffuser idea.

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

[itaspCatCriny]

The smallest of Toyota`s problem were the drivers

Agreed. Two proven race winners who knew how the top teams went about their business. Both Ralf and Trulli could be temperamental but without winning races Toyota didn't have a hope of attracting the real top talent but kept being used as a foil by drivers to get their existing teams to push their pay up.

Being in Germany certainly didn't help, unable to poach midlevel F1 engineers from the British teams and competing with BMW for what was left in Germany.

[poRmawayncmop]

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

But, as I said earlier, did they drop back during 2009, or was it more the performance of Button dropping off that gave that impression? I seem to recall Barrichello was right on the pace in the second half of the season, generally well ahead of Button.

[itaspCatCriny]

But, as I said earlier, did they drop back during 2009, or was it more the performance of Button dropping off that gave that impression? I seem to recall Barrichello was right on the pace in the second half of the season, generally well ahead of Button.

Late on in the season I don't recall Brawn ever having the kind of dominant 1-2 win at a canter kind of relative pace that they had at the beginning. My impression was that Brawn as a whole dropped back in pace relative to other teams whilst Barrichello overcame his braking issues and overtook Button, although Button also found it difficult under pressure in the latter part of the season. Didn't Brawn pretty much every race bar China in the first half and only win the odd race in the second half?

[poRmawayncmop]

Late on in the season I don't recall Brawn ever having the kind of dominant 1-2 win at a canter kind of relative pace that they had at the beginning. My impression was that Brawn as a whole dropped back in pace relative to other teams whilst Barrichello overcame his braking issues and overtook Button, although Button also found it difficult under pressure in the latter part of the season. Didn't Brawn pretty much every race bar China in the first half and only win the odd race in the second half?

You're right about their dominance being erased, but I'm still a tad unsure as to whether the Brawn drop-off was quite so marked, or whether it was exacerbated by Button's struggle to reach the championship finishing line and the improvement shown by other teams.

[Stappipsy]

Ralf did drive for them, dumbo.
If you mean Michael, well, he could just have been a bit faster than Ralf, but that is it. He wouldnt have made the car faster, he wouldnt have cured the leadership problems at the helm of the team and the team would still have been a mess. Maybe he would have lucked into one win somehow, but that is far from given.


Grid girls.

Of course MS Ralf's missus is quicker than him plus has nice norks/clunge.

You mean like MS did at Benetton?

[serius_06]

The comparisons between Toyota and Mercedes are interesting and although we seem to have a slight difference in funding matters (it seems MB hasn't been putting that much money into it so far), there isn't much difference in what kind of an impression do they leave to the general audience - big car manufacturers going nowhere. Now the difference seems to be that Mercedes is actually hiring some great engineers in order to try to improve. Toyota didn't really do that - except perhaps their biggest signing Gascoyne, but they managed to get rid of him two years later again.

[12dargernswearf]

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the Mercedes money was not as great as one might have thought, since apparently they've been running below the level of the resource restriction agreement.

[leijggigf]

You're right about their dominance being erased, but I'm still a tad unsure as to whether the Brawn drop-off was quite so marked, or whether it was exacerbated by Button's struggle to reach the championship finishing line and the improvement shown by other teams.

Add to that the fact that the car had issues with pace during cooler weather. Tires didn't heat up well. All other comments above are valid as well.

[Mister.levitra]

No, it proves they got lucky with a loophole in the rules and used big money to milk it for all it's worth. Once others had it later in the season they dropped back to their usual midfield points scorer position. Lets face it, since becoming BAR in 1999 the team have always been average midfield runners, with the exception of 2 seasons, 2004 and 2009 - we know the story of 2009 but in 2004 the designer was Geoff Willis so I think somebody has woken up to the fact that he is their best chance right now. Personally I think that whole team is just a bunch of average people who ride on this false image of a top team, and the biggest problem IMO is their CEO Nick Fry, who's got to be the biggest BS talker I've ever seen in F1.

Nick fRy has been and will always be the problem as long as he is there

[Biassasecumma]

There are reports in the German media that claim MS extended his contract to 2013 and has an option for 2014. Couldn't be any better for Mercedes.

[Hervams]

There are reports in the German media that claim MS extended his contract to 2013 and has an option for 2014. Couldn't be any better for Mercedes.

It couldn't be any worse either. At least they can milk the Schumacher name for abit longer and keep sponsors interested while both drivers underperform and development slows down.

[Biassasecumma]

It couldn't be any worse either. At least they can milk the Schumacher name for abit longer and keep sponsors interested while both drivers underperform and development slows down.

I can say the same about McLaren and their drivers, and prove it the same way you proved your claim.

[Hervams]

I can say the same about McLaren and their drivers, and prove it the same way you proved your claim.

You could do yes by comparing how many races Mercedes and McLaren are winning per season.




Oh yeah I forgot this , because this wins an arguement.

[serius_06]

While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?

[Optosypoeds]

I love how biased people can get, Merc drivers have been under performing? I have seen some reports too, that MS has signed on for 2013, which I think is when they are expecting for the car to be a wc contender. I really hope Merc can fight among the top 3 and occasionally win next season.

[carfAball]

You mean like MS did at Benetton?

What MS at Benetton? He didnt develop the team, he didnt engineer the car, he had Rory Byrne and guys like that for those things.

There are reports in the German media that claim MS extended his contract to 2013 and has an option for 2014. Couldn't be any better for Mercedes.

Excellent news

While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?

Hülkenberg is worthless

[Biassasecumma]

You could do yes by comparing how many races Mercedes and McLaren are winning per season.




Oh yeah I forgot this , because this wins an arguement.

So, where are your facts kid? Right, there are no facts, like always in your arguments.

[Biassasecumma]

I love how biased people can get, Merc drivers have been under performing? I have seen some reports too, that MS has signed on for 2013, which I think is when they are expecting for the car to be a wc contender. I really hope Merc can fight among the top 3 and occasionally win next season.

If anything, compared to Hamilton's showing, both MS and Rosberg have been punching way about their weight. But don't tell this to henners, poor guy might have a crysis when confronted with reality.

[Biassasecumma]

While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?

Hulkenberg? The guy who lucked into a pole and then went on to finish one lap down? Can we even call him a racer?
Di Resta? Maybe, though he didn't really look more convincing than Sutil this season.