[oxinsnepe]

Think this one deserves its own thread:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...ppx%202011.pdf


As far as I can see some supporting regs, as the new R4 and RGT is yet not published, or is it ?

[jurnalkduo]

Pages 13 & 14 are the ones to look at. Lot of merging of classes there. Will some be phased out over time?

[Haremporblape]

For sure but be aware that this is valid only for World Rally Chmpionship.

[oxinsnepe]

But as we suspected both R4 and RGT are in as new classes, when can we expect the detailed tech regs being published ?

Today is 5 Dec and first rally is aprox 8 weeks away !!

[Gasfghj]

Only WRC sporting regulations so far.

By the google translation of autosport.cz above, I understand the WMSC meeting would be 10th of December.

Things that caught my attention:

- One new article (255A) to group A (A5, A6, A7 and S2000, page 13)
- “Group RGT cars conforming to 2011 Addendix J Article 256.” So far article 256 has been for group B cars.
- S2000 with 1.6T engine is in it’s own class (class 1).

[Grainiary]

If I understand correctly: R4 cars are in SWRC, not in PWRC
page13 4.2
page14 4.6

[Gasfghj]

Today probably all the commissions (WRC, rally, homologations & technical etc.) had their meetings and tomorrow is the WMSC meeting. Hope we will have some info also tomorrow.

Probably WMSC stop working early tomorrow because in the evening it’s party time (FIA Awards Gala) and they probably want to have few beers before that.

[oxinsnepe]

There has been made aprox 260 s2000 cars in 4 seasons. How long will it take to get to those numbers with 1,6T cars ?

The prices on both SP and WRC will be btw 100 000 and 200 000€ more than a S2000, that is expensive enough.

Will privateers have money enough to be able to buy them, or will they flop - and FIA will have to get back to the drawing board ?

[Gasfghj]

There has been made aprox 260 s2000 cars in 4 seasons. How long will it take to get to those numbers with 1,6T cars ?

The prices on both SP and WRC will be btw 100 000 and 200 000€ more than a S2000, that is expensive enough.

Will privateers have money enough to be able to buy them, or will they flop - and FIA will have to get back to the drawing board ?

If you ask my opinion it would like this.

As the S2000 cars are today (NA 2000 cc), they’re homologation should be allowed beyond 2010 (they’ve have so nice sound and they’re also lot cheaper).

The SP version of WRC cars should be made equal in performance by finding a restrictor size that’s equal with a performance of a S2000 NA car.

The higher price of a SP would be the “punishment” for a driver who wants to attend both regional and WRC events.

[escolubtessen]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

[oxinsnepe]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

The only price we have right now is from the Mini, and the "cheap" gold package has more than just the car in it: http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...es-package.pdf

So lets see what the price end up with. Remember that FIA is moving other racing categories in the 1600T direction well, that should bring the price down on the engine at least, when volumes increase.

Looking at the 2nd hand market on S2000, 207s are now at 180 000 euro, that is still a huge amount of money for a privat team, when you can get a Evo 9 Gr N for aprox 40 000. Not sure what an R4 upgrade will cost, but not that much.

That is why FIA need to simplify the rules, to keep the cost down and number of cars up

The Maxirally concept in some shape or form, not a bad idea - more standard parts to keep cost down, at least at the 2nd echelon of cars.

[ecosportpol_ru]

Speaking of car prices, on the latest edition of Martin Holmes' Pirelli World Rallying books there's a feature on Phil Mills' and John O'Connor's Viking Motorsports that prepare mostly Mk II Escorts for Historic rallies. Article says that they sell cars for around £110 000 - £120 000 (around €130 000 - €140 000). That sounds awfully lot for a historic rally car, though Viking Motorsports makes them as top spec as possible within regulations. It also says that even if an N4 Impreza would cost only 10-20% more to buy as a new, the Mk II Escort will keep its price much better over the first years.

[Gasfghj]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

The main reason for the price difference between S2000 NA and SP is the direct injection engine. If Citroen would sell their DS3 WRC I just wonder what the price would be because Citroen uses a purpose in house design and build engine.

I don’t think the gearbox has any part in the price difference because e.g. Fiesta S2000 and Skoda S2000 uses a gearbox that can cope with 600 Nm torque which also should be enough for a 1.6T engine.

The price of Mini SP is about 405.000 € and the price of S2000 Fiesta is 280.000 € (Janne Tuohino). Subtracting the price (45.000 €) for a S2000 NA engine from 280.000 € leaves 235.000 € for the rest of the cars. The difference between Mini SP and Fiesta S2000 is now 405.000 – 235.000 = 170.000 € which would be the price for a direct injection 1.6T engine.

It’s of course little bit difficult to say how accurate this result is because the result is calculated by the prices of two different brands and cars. But I think we will have more accurate figures when Skoda updates their S2000 with a 1.6T engine.

And then there is the question when we have only one brand with a SP car. It depends much about their (Prodrive) pricing policy.

[Gasfghj]

After reading the new WRC car's regulations little more thoroughly I noticed that the boost seems to be “only” 1,5 bar.

- Turbo pressure: maximum = 2.5b absolute

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.../255A_2011.pdf (page 3)

[NumDusthouh]

lets see how far they can go with only 1,5 bar!

[HRCPda7R]

On the Swedenrally site the classes are strange to me, are they new, and what do them mean?

[Haremporblape]

Yes, new FIA classes but sometimes wrong...

WRC 1.6T - only for WRC events

Everywhere:
1 - S2000 1.6T
2 - S2000 2.0 N/A, R4
3 - N4
4 - RGT
5 - S1600, R3C, R3T, R3D, A7, R2C
6 - R2B, A6, A6VK
7 - A5VK, A5
8 - N3
9 - R1B, N2
10 - R1A, N1

[oxinsnepe]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

[Gasfghj]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

No, WRC is it’s own class in WRC events. In regional championships WRC cars are not allowed. In national rallies it’s up to the local ASN to allow or not WRC cars.

Here, page 13: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...ppx%202011.pdf

[Z1IRo4Ap]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

Superproduction uses the 1,6T S2000 so it will be class 1