[Bwvapays]

It is impossible in England to pass through the next couple of weeks without hearing Christmas carols. (I don't know if it's the same in USA, Canada, Aus.) I like them, and though I know Orthodox Christians should not attend the services of schismatics and heretics, I feel that I want to go to a Christmas carol service. My brother-in-law arrives from Moscow on 23 December, and as we drive from Heathrow to Essex, we pass St Paul's Cathedral where there will be a carol concert at 4pm. We plan to take in this carol concert on our way back to Essex. It seems to me also that my wife and her brother will thereby take in something of the culture of England. Does anyone think I'm wrong?

[Ocqljudq]

Would you avoid a concert of Handel's Halleluia Chorus? Any other symphony? Do you avoid the theater? I don't know that a concert of Christmas carols is any different in that respect.

[Darlmtgq]

Thank you, Herman.

[Piediahef]

... and though I know Orthodox Christians should not attend the services of schismatics and heretics, I feel that I want to go to a Christmas carol service.

Of course you should go! Orthodox Christians are not to partake of communion in non-Orthodox churches, nor submit to their sacraments, but there is no prohibition in simply attending a heterodox church service. If a non-Orthodox friend had died, would you refuse to go to their funeral? Or attend a friend's wedding? Also remember that many of the old traditional Christmas carols are quite compatible with Orthodox belief, even if those singing them are unaware of this.

[2CNWXAqN]

Yes, often the old, traditional English carols are quite compatible with Orthodox belief....but beware singing them out of modern hymnals with your friends! I was horrified, a year or two ago, to find that some of the carols have been "modernised" with "inclusive language". We were trying to sing some of them from door to door in my (USA) neighbourhood last year, and some of us had the "1940" US Episcopal hymnal, and some had their newer edition, and the words didn't match! We'd have been much better off with printouts from online sources....sigh.

At least, in St. Paul's Cathedral, maybe they'll get the words right... I hope so! Lucky you, being able to go to that concert; the choir of St. Paul's is splendid, judging by recordings I have here.

Of course, our church choir here doesn't sing "Christmas carols" at my parish as part of the Liturgy, but we sometimes sing "Lully, Lullay" outdoors, in front of the Rectory, for our dear pastor, as he rather likes that one.

Best wishes,

Mary Emily

[SinyugiN]

Anyone who really wants to hear some fine orthodox christmas music and has the change to hear or see this should go there:

http://orthodoxeurope.org/#19-2-424

Bishop Hilarion is a great composer and a very spiritual Father which also speaks through his music!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[VottCetaVeivE]

"Lully, Lullay" outdoors, in front of the Rectory, for our dear pastor, as he rather likes that one. My wife heard this, the Coventry Carol, for the first time last week. She thinks it's very beautiful and that it sounds quite like Russian Orthodox music. The outsider's view is always interesting; as we have gone around Britain, especially to places such as St Andrew's Church at Greenstead, Essex, Glastonbury, Iona, Lindisfarne, Lydia marvels at what we once had here.

[wmtravelservice]

Andre

S'Prazdnikom on your angel's day (I assume you are named after the first apostle?) Yes, you should most certainly "take in" the concert of carols. The base prohibition for Orthodox Christians is not to "pray with" those outside the Church. This does not mean we can't visit their services or that we cannot pray in their presence (as some have made this to mean) but rather that we cannot adopt their prayers as our own since our belief is reflected in our prayer. Thus there is the possibility of some heretical aspect to the prayer and we should avoid embracing this heretical taint into our souls. But that doesn't mean we can't enjoy the singing of songs in honor to our Lord's incarnation (but you must attend to the words of the song).

In my parish, we begin the Christmas eve service with the Vigil of the feast and then gather in the hall for the "sochelnik" or Christmas eve dinner. Following the dinner we return to the Church and gather around the candle and icon in the center of the Church and beginning with the Troparion of the feast we sing Christmas carols together - ending again with the Troparion. This local tradition is inspired by the rubrics of the vigil which state that at the end of the Vigil for Nativity, the two choirs descend from the kliros and standing in the center of the Church around the candle that has been brought there sing together the Troparion. We don't have two choirs (sometimes we don't even have one) but we do have this chance to sing to the glory of our Lord together.

Fr David Moser

[sicheAscems]

That's absolutely right, Fr. Moser--we need to attend to the words....

It was so long ago that I discovered that the feminists had been "at" the Christmas carols...years later, all I remember now is that the "men" had been removed from "Good Christian Men, Rejoice"....

When the non-Orthodox are praying, I am praying too: that they'll find the Orthodox Faith!

And yes, indeed, Andreas Moran, that early English tune does sound Russian and yes indeed as well we were there at all those places. Every time we visit them, even now, we are back there again! Keep praying and never stop!

Mary Emily

[StivRichardOff]

Thanks to one and all for your responses. I was very interested in your thoughts. I think we have to live alongside our neighbours in the various Christian denominations though without compromising our own position (to me, ecumenism means everybody returning to the Orthodox Church). St Paul's Cathedral is, I think, one of the world's great masterpieces of architecture. Pictures can give no idea of the perfection of its proportions, grace and beauty, especially as you go around the outside of it. The articulation of shape, mass, and detail is amazing. We pass it every time we go to a concert or exhibition in London, and it's always a marvel to see. Cleaning of the Cathedral has just finished. Thank you, Fr David, for your greetings on this day.

Holy Apostle Andrew, pray to God for us!

[seervezex]

It is impossible in England to pass through the next couple of weeks without hearing Christmas carols. (I don't know if it's the same in USA, Canada, Aus.) I like them, and though I know Orthodox Christians should not attend the services of schismatics and heretics, I feel that I want to go to a Christmas carol service. My brother-in-law arrives from Moscow on 23 December, and as we drive from Heathrow to Essex, we pass St Paul's Cathedral where there will be a carol concert at 4pm. We plan to take in this carol concert on our way back to Essex. It seems to me also that my wife and her brother will thereby take in something of the culture of England. Does anyone think I'm wrong?

What would Christmas be without Christmas carols. Here in Greece we have our traditional Christmas carols - sung by children who come to our doors to be thanked with sweets and fruits (although some of them are hoping only for money).... we also have christmas carols that have been translated into Greek from German and English. They all extoll the wonder of Christ's birth.

Effie

[propolo]

In Russia & Ukraine there are the koliadki. In Romania these are called colinde.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[IACJdKfU]

In Russia & Ukraine there are the koliadki. In Romania these are called colinde.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Now this is interesting, Fr. Raphael. In Greece our Christmas carols are called kalinda or kalanda..... these three names are too similar to be a coincidence.

I just found the following :

"The word calanda stems from the Latin calenda, which translates as "the beginning of the month."

The following Christmas carol is sung by children on Christmas Eve while going around to all the houses in their district. They don't ring your bell but start singing outside your front door, keeping time with a triangle....an idiophone musical instrument. They sing the following Christmas carol until the lady of the house opens her door and fills their bags with goodies - sweets, nuts, fruit and money.




Good day lords
If it's your bidding
Of the Christ's divine birth
I will tell in your mansion

Christ is being born today
In the town of Bethlehem
The heavens rejoice
And all creation delights

In the cave he is born
Within the horse manger
The king of the heavens
And Maker of all . . .



The same thing happens on New Year's Eve with the carols for the new year only not as many doors open to the children because they start their rounds at daybreak and most people have just gone to sleep after seeing the new year in!!!




Effie

[Anfester]

Now this is interesting, Fr. Raphael. In Greece our Christmas carols are called kalinda..... these three names are too similar to be a coincidence.
Perhaps there is a common root word?

Effie

There must be, but I don't know what it is.

Does anyone else have an idea about this?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[pedFlicle]

There must be, but I don't know what it is.

Does anyone else have an idea about this?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Fr. Raphael, we are posting at the same time. Sorry. I was editing my message while you were posting yours. I found that the word calanda has a Latin root. It apparently means the beginning of the month. I don't see the connection for the Christmas carols although this meaning might be valid for the New Year's carols.

As Orthodox, our most important religious event is Easter of course, but Christmas is such a joyous time that it is right and proper that it has also become important in our lives. I love Dickens' accounts of Christmas, especially those in Pickwick Papers.

" Christmas was close at
hand, in all his bluff and hearty honesty; it was the season of
hospitality, merriment, and open-heartedness; the old year was
preparing, like an ancient philosopher, to call his friends around
him, and amidst the sound of feasting and revelry to pass gently and
calmly away. Gay and merry was the time; and right gay and merry
were at least four of the numerous hearts that were gladdened by
its coming.

And numerous indeed are the hearts to which Christmas
brings a brief season of happiness and enjoyment. How many
families, whose members have been dispersed and scattered far
and wide, in the restless struggles of life, are then reunited, and
meet once again in that happy state of companionship and mutual
goodwill, which is a source of such pure and unalloyed delight;
and one so incompatible with the cares and sorrows of the world,
that the religious belief of the most civilised nations, and the rude
traditions of the roughest savages, alike number it among the
first joys of a future condition of existence, provided for the
blessed and happy! How many old recollections, and how many
dormant sympathies, does Christmas time awaken!

We write these words now, many miles distant from the spot
at which, year after year, we met on that day, a merry and joyous
circle. Many of the hearts that throbbed so gaily then, have
ceased to beat; many of the looks that shone so brightly then,
have ceased to glow; the hands we grasped, have grown cold; the
eyes we sought, have hid their lustre in the grave; and yet the old
house, the room, the merry voices and smiling faces, the jest,
the laugh, the most minute and trivial circumstances connected
with those happy meetings, crowd upon our mind at each
recurrence of the season, as if the last assemblage had been but
yesterday! Happy, happy Christmas, that can win us back to the
delusions of our childish days; ..........."

Effie

[E4qC1qQ5]

They sing the following Christmas carol until the lady of the house opens her door

I remember once some carol singers came to our house, and my father opened the door. They sang one verse, and then stopped. So my father told them to sing the rest of it!

I printed out some carols from the internet last year to play on my guitar, and was appalled at the change in the words: removal of references to virgin birth or Trinity. This year I plan to go to my local Christian bookshop (yes,they also have a small bit on Orthodoxy!: only about 4 books, and mainly on icons) and buy a music book with the tradiitonal words in it.

I always specifically go to a carol service at Christmas - I like a good sing song!

Richard

[palantownia]

Here is a link with some nice Romanian colinde (sorry- don't know the plural of colinde in Romanian!).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[RobertLS]

I remember once some carol singers came to our house, and my father opened the door. They sang one verse, and then stopped. So my father told them to sing the rest of it!



Richard

Richard, my husband does this and it's so funny sometimes because some of the children only know the first verse of the carol they are singing. They all end up laughing however and leave with their bags full. Such happiness! Today it has been snowing all day and we have high hopes that we will have a white christmas this year even though this makes going to church at 6 a.m. on Christmas morning quite a challenge.

Effie

[Frierlovene]

Here is a link with some nice Romanian colinde (sorry- don't know the plural of colinde in Romanian!).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Beautiful! Thank you.

[BarBoss]

Also before we forget we should mention the Russian tradition of yolka which occurs every year after Nativity. I guess you could call this a Christmas pageant.

In our parish this takes place on the Sunday after Christmas. After Liturgy we have a nice festal meal; then the children sing koliadki and do little skits. At this point Ded' Moroz (the Russian version of Santa Claus) makes his entrance and hands out gifts to the children. Somehow though under that white beard he seems to bear a passing resemblance to one of our parishioners.

In Christ- Fr Raphael