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Old 10-05-2011, 06:03 AM   #1
EmxATW5m

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Default Many calculators not following math rules?
And it's a damn simple equation too:
48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 )

Basic math rules say that you first calculate things within parenthesis (if there's more than one, you start from possible parenthesis inside another parenthesis etc), multiplying and dividing are equal and done in order from left to right.
Also since there's parenthesis next to number without anything between them, they're multiplied.

So the above equation goes like this:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) =
48 / 2 ( 12 ) =
24 ( 12 ) =
24 * 12 =
288

However, some calculators count it like this:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) =
48 / 2 ( 12 ) =
48 / 24 =
2

Strangely enough, some people are quite convinced the latter way should be correct, and not the former.

Here's wolfram alphas take on it:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=48/2(9%2B3)

And examples where calculators fail or do it right:




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Old 10-05-2011, 06:40 AM   #2
vintsqyuid

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The correct answer, according to a friend of mine with a degree in Math, is 2.

48/(2*(9+3))
= 2
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:48 AM   #3
Goodwin

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The correct answer, according to a friend of mine with a degree in Math, is 2.

48/(2*(9+3))
= 2
You've changed the original expression. 48/(2*(9+3)) is not the same as 48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ). The former essentially says "Divide 48 by 2 and then multiply this by the sum of 9 and 3". Your expression reads "Divide 48 by the multiplication of 2 by the sum of 9 and 3".

Edit: Oh and yes, Kaotika, it's a complete mess when it comes to the world of calculators. If you think the variation in the handling of parentheses and implied operations is bad enough, it's relatively minor compared to long-standing stupidity of labelling arcsin, arccos, arctan as sin-1, cos-1, etc. The latest craze is for calculators to completely ignore negative signs (and I mean negative signs, not minus/subtraction signs) in front of numbers when raising them to a power, unless the value is enclosed in parentheses before applying the power.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:12 AM   #4
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The correct answer should be 2 seeing as how you put the 9 and 3 in parentheses. Using order of operations, Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction (PEMDAS)? The calculator added the 9 and 3 in parentheses and then multiplied the 2 times 12 and divided 48 by 24 according to the correct order of operations, no?

Either way, I always make sure to put parentheses either way when it comes to problems like these.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:15 AM   #5
peveballery

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The problem with some of them is solving as the user is inputing the data and so not obeying the standard order

the microsoft calculator for example doesnt process the operand after an operator is inputed at the start, it seems to expect a much simpler equation with just a single operator for 2 operands. so the display actually reads

48 / ( 9 + 3) instead of 48 / 2 ( 9 + 3) for solving

so its best to solve the parenthesis first before inputing 48 / 2 x 12 further simplified 24 x12. defeats the purpose of a calculator i know

its always best to test your calculator beforehand. One with a buffer to hold the equation before the user actually presses to solve is required for the standardised order
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:22 AM   #6
Goodwin

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The correct answer should be 2 seeing as how you put the 9 and 3 in parentheses. Using order of operations, Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction (PEMDAS)?

Either way, I always make sure to put parentheses either way when it comes to problems like these.
PEDMAS, BODMAS, BIDMAS or whatever you want to call isn't a mathematical axiom. It's a handy guide for remembering things but it shouldn't be treated as being a definitive rule. The correct way to do this is to sort out any operations in parentheses first (i.e. the 9 + 3) and then go back and read the expression left to right, where multiplication and division are done before addition/subtraction.

Thus the correct answer in Kaotika's original expression is 288 and not 2:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) = 48 ÷ 2 x 12 = 24 x 12 = 288

The answer is only 2 if the expression is specifically written like this:

48 / ( 2 ( 9 + 3 ) ) = 48 ÷ ( 2 x 12 ) = 48 ÷ 24 = 2

Slapping parentheses about can easily change an expression from its intended form.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:28 AM   #7
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PEDMAS, BODMAS, BIDMAS or whatever you want to call isn't a mathematical axiom. It's a handy guide for remembering things but it shouldn't be treated as being a definitive rule. The correct way to do this is to sort out any operations in parentheses first (i.e. the 9 + 3) and then go back and read the expression left to right, where multiplication and division are done before addition/subtraction.

Thus the correct answer in Kaotika's original expression is 288 and not 2:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) = 48 ÷ 2 x 12 = 24 x 12 = 288

The answer is only 2 if the expression is specifically written like this:

48 / ( 2 ( 9 + 3 ) ) = 48 ÷ ( 2 x 12 ) = 48 ÷ 24 = 2

Slapping parentheses about can easily change an expression from its intended form.
Exactly. Any definitive rule should be plainly stated to just simplify the expression which obviously enough is where the parenthesis priority comes from
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:25 AM   #8
MatueHarton

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PEDMAS, BODMAS, BIDMAS or whatever you want to call isn't a mathematical axiom. It's a handy guide for remembering things but it shouldn't be treated as being a definitive rule. The correct way to do this is to sort out any operations in parentheses first (i.e. the 9 + 3) and then go back and read the expression left to right, where multiplication and division are done before addition/subtraction.

Thus the correct answer in Kaotika's original expression is 288 and not 2:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) = 48 ÷ 2 x 12 = 24 x 12 = 288

The answer is only 2 if the expression is specifically written like this:

48 / ( 2 ( 9 + 3 ) ) = 48 ÷ ( 2 x 12 ) = 48 ÷ 24 = 2

Slapping parentheses about can easily change an expression from its intended form.
But havn't you done it as if...

(48/2)(9+3) ...... Presuming there are extra brackets?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering.

For me it all comes down to whether you do the multiplication or division first.

I think the answers 2 for the reason that what's in the brackets should be multiplied out first. But I think it's 288 by going left to right once the addition is done.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:39 AM   #9
Butiqueso

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Seems as though the normal calculators work fine from those images. Never used one of those graphics calculators.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:43 AM   #10
EmxATW5m

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But havn't you done it as if...

(48/2)(9+3) ...... Presuming there are extra brackets?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering.

For me it all comes down to whether you do the multiplication or division first.

I think the answers 2 for the reason that what's in the brackets should be multiplied out first. But I think it's 288 by going left to right once the addition is done.
Huh?
There's no questions about that, just like adding and substracting are equal and you go from left to right, multiplication and division are equal and you go from left to right

You do (9+3) first, and then go left to right.
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:15 AM   #11
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They're both right, only some are more right than others.
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:15 AM   #12
Ingeborga

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Exactly as posted, I got 2 [cursing]
Is this a follow up of 'Scout's post?
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:10 AM   #13
prmwsinfo

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In that first question is a TI-85 with the answer of 2.

My TI-84 Plus gave me the answer of 288.
If I put the answer in as 48/(2(9+3)) it gives me the answer 2.

Im glad my calculator isn't retarded doing this simple math. I hope that it isn't retarded anywhere else. Doing precal and calculus this entire year.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:37 PM   #14
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One set of calculators assumes parentheses with 48/2(9+3), even Google's calculator as well as the Wolfram calculator assume a set of parentheses around 48/2 when doing their calculations. Either way, any person with a brain should be using parentheses around the desired components when doing the calculations. When somebody just types that into a calculator, it has to assume one way or the other. How are you supposed to know whether or not a person is asking 48/(2(9+3)) or (48/2)(9+3) if you don't separate the equation properly?
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:18 PM   #15
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PEDMAS, BODMAS, BIDMAS or whatever you want to call isn't a mathematical axiom. It's a handy guide for remembering things but it shouldn't be treated as being a definitive rule. The correct way to do this is to sort out any operations in parentheses first (i.e. the 9 + 3) and then go back and read the expression left to right, where multiplication and division are done before addition/subtraction.

Thus the correct answer in Kaotika's original expression is 288 and not 2:

48 / 2 ( 9 + 3 ) = 48 ÷ 2 x 12 = 24 x 12 = 288

The answer is only 2 if the expression is specifically written like this:

48 / ( 2 ( 9 + 3 ) ) = 48 ÷ ( 2 x 12 ) = 48 ÷ 24 = 2

Slapping parentheses about can easily change an expression from its intended form.
OMG make love to me right now !!!!!
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #16
MatueHarton

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I was never taught about the rule of going left to right. It's sounds obvious enough, but no sum I have done (and I did a few) has made me make that decision. Like Eiridan said, the equation should be seperaed properly.

Anyway it's maths not math.

Americans [rolleyes]
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:45 PM   #17
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One set of calculators assumes parentheses with 48/2(9+3), even Google's calculator as well as the Wolfram calculator assume a set of parentheses around 48/2 when doing their calculations. Either way, any person with a brain should be using parentheses around the desired components when doing the calculations. When somebody just types that into a calculator, it has to assume one way or the other. How are you supposed to know whether or not a person is asking 48/(2(9+3)) or (48/2)(9+3) if you don't separate the equation properly?
By following the basic rules of algebra. If two equal operands exist, go from left to right. It's as simple as that.
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:17 PM   #18
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If a plane is placed on a conveyer belt...will it take off?
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:27 PM   #19
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Answer is 2 anyway you put it, neeyik is wrong [rolleyes]
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:35 PM   #20
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so anyway kaotika did you mean the top or the bottom equation, did you even go to elementary school?



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