[ambientambien]

Hi
A month or so ago I received my first copy of "The Word", a magazine sent out to members of the Antiochian Church. Does anybody else get this publication? There is an ad on the back cover that has been bothering me a bit...it is for the Antiochian Archdiocese Convention in Palm Desert, CA. The odd thing is, if you see the ad, the whole focus is on the riches that await yoiu there: "SHOP at El Paseo, the 5th Avenue of Palm Desert...GOLF at 2 outstanding courses at the hotel....PLAY TENNIS on one of 18 courts...ENJOY the River of Rancho MIRAGE featuring shops, theatres, and restaurants." There is actually no mention of the spiritual focus of the convention. The whole thing looks and sounds like a vacation for the rich and at ease - and my wife tells me that Palm Desert is a favorite destination of the super-wealthy. Now, for me, the really odd thing is this; up at the top, there is a quote from a saint which reads "Be mindful, O Lord, of those who bear fruit....and who remember the poor." Say what? This whole convention looks very exclusive, and I doubt any poor members of the church will be able to be in attendance. I guess my question is, does this make anyone else feel uncomfortable? Why does the Church seem to be exalting the wealthy, and using a "playground of the well-to-do" as a convention center? Is material success a way of climbing a ladder in the Church, just like it is in the world?
I'm interested in hearing how others see this type of thing....
-Julian

[gugqgbyzlp]

Dear Julian,

I am not one to try to defend the decisions of the archdiocese, but here is the schedule of events. Being we are a large organization, as I know how large my company's National organization is, there are not just a whole lot of venues across the country that can house the number of people. attending. I have not seen the article you are menting, but the website does refer to all the amentities.

It could be the hotel asked them to post this. Or it could be a carrot for laymen to attend, or who knows. Looking at the agenda I see a whole lot of activities for Teen SOYO, so perhaps this venue is geared towards the youth more so than the adults.

Paul

[Qrhzbadu]

The movers and shakers in the Arab Church in the U.S. and Canada are VERY wealthy. Orthodox asceticism is not their cup of tea, so to speak. There are plenty of other venues large enough that would be less resplendent, but that's not what they want.

[osteoftex]

Paul, I had thought of the possibility that there are valid reasons for using this venue; perhaps it's important to be close to the host church in L.A., for example. So that's fair enough. More than anything, it's the emphasis of the ad that troubles me - the emphasis on shopping and living "the good life". If this is a "carrot" for laymen, as you suggest, what kind of laymen is this going to attract?

And what does this encourage among the laity? I would like to think that the Church recognizes this present materialistic culture as a "hollow promise", and calls our attention to its fading glory. Am I living in naivete? What has happened to "blessed are ye poor"? I would think that you have to be rich to go to the convention...so are we blessing the rich, in just the same way that the world does?

I suppose I had hoped things would be different in the Church. I feel disappointed.

-young and naive, julian.

[kristloken]

I suspect that the ad was accepted because the magazine makes prime dollars on outside back cover ads. It was not an endorsement of the ad. What is sad, is that the values of the ad are contrary to the Church's values. If it is a struggling magazine, my guess is that it was a difficult decision to print the ad, but the pragmatics of economics forced the decision.

[Kristoferson]

I suspect that the ad was accepted because the magazine makes prime dollars on outside back cover ads. It was not an endorsement of the ad. What is sad, is that the values of the ad are contrary to the Church's values. If it is a struggling magazine, my guess is that it was a difficult decision to print the ad, but the pragmatics of economics forced the decision.

Part of me wishes that was the story here, Allen, but in this case, the ad is actually for the Ant. Archdiocese Convention...this is their ad inviting (wealthy) people to the annual convention!

[Opinion_counts]

I would like to advise those posting to this topic to avoid bashing the Antiochian Archdiocese - no matter how subtly - and stay with the original query about materialism and the Church. As a reminder, the original question was:

Why does the Church seem to be exalting the wealthy, and using a "playground of the well-to-do" as a convention center? Is material success a way of climbing a ladder in the Church, just like it is in the world? Fr David Moser

[MannyLopez]

This is maybe a very broad response to this thread, but I'm not sure the Church has ever successfully challenged materialism except among its own most dedicated members. Materialism is nothing new in society, and nothing new in the Church. The imperial Church was often accused of rampant materialism, which is why many fled into the desert.

What will have a much greater impact is the global depression we are entering. Unemployment in the U.S. may exceed 20%, and in many other countries people will starve. It will go on quite a long time. This is going to lead to much political upheaval, maybe some wars, but it will also produce a less materialistic generation that will have learned to live within its means and not go into debt to purchase luxuries.

[feeshyLew]

Why does the Church seem to be exalting the wealthy, and using a "playground of the well-to-do" as a convention center? Is material success a way of climbing a ladder in the Church, just like it is in the world? That might be because God in His infinite wisdom, lets fallen humans take care of His Church and sometimes they do fallen human things. I think it is amazing how God can still get His work done through such imperfect tools as us. And yet, He does. Go figure.

When we see such things, particularly during this holy season, we do well to remember the prayer of St. Ephraim, particularly that part about "... allow me to see my own faults, and not judge my brothers..." but that might just be me...

O bother.

Herman the Pooh

[JonDopl]

Well, Herman, I'm sure you're right. I would not have such a problem with it if it were just some random individuals; I think in such a case I'd be having an easier time feeling that the poor folks were simply missing the point. And I'm in much need of "keeping my eyes on my own plate"; but when it's actually the leadership (or whoever the convention committee is made up of) that is putting out stuff that looks, feels, and sounds like something from lifestyles of the rich and famous then, I confess, I feel sore provoked to say something about it. I am not not NOT a prophet by any stretch, but would the old-school prophets just be quiet about something because it was a "holy season"? I can just imagine Isaiah or one like him just thwacking Jewish leaders over something like this.

Owen, you said "I'm not sure the Church has ever successfully challenged materialism except among its own most dedicated members." Wouldn't it just be neat if its "most dedicated members" were the ones who were rising to the forefront, and were in the positions of leading the Church? Or at least making its advertisements?

[duawLauff]

There is a good point here as it relates to both leadership and church with community (or church without community).

[wmzeto]

I heartily agree with Mr. Schroer. It's hard to take such people seriously. But again, the movers and shakers in the Antiochian Archdiocese are VERY wealthy. So monastic asceticism is not exactly something that comes flowing off their tongues.

[Wdlglivi]

Direct and open criticism of churches is beyond the scope of this forum. There are plenty of websites out there that love this sort of thing. Monachos is not one of them. If we can restrict this thread to materialism in general and what the Tradition of the Church teaches without overt criticism of current Church leadership, it may prove more edifying and certainly closer to the spirit of this forum and the season.

Herman the submoderator.

[diundasmink]

Direct and open criticism of churches is beyond the scope of this forum. There are plenty of websites out there that love this sort of thing. Monachos is not one of them. If we can restrict this thread to materialism in general and what the Tradition of the Church teaches without overt criticism of current Church leadership, it may prove more edifying and certainly closer to the spirit of this forum and the season.

Herman the submoderator.

Yes, Herman you are absolutely right. I apologize for being too direct in my statements, please forgive me. I'll try to avoid that. I have been comforted, even so, that people on the forum seem to understand what I am talking about - so that I think "perhaps everything has not gone upside down after all!"

That said, what does Tradition teach us about materialism? In this age, which in the U.S. at least seems hyper-materialistic, where we are continually bombarded with a mantra of "lay up treasure" and endure the constant suggestion that we are measured by our ability to do so - where goes the Christian? What path does the Church show to us?

in hope,
Julian.

[fectsnanteemy]

That said, what does Tradition teach us about materialism? In this age, which in the U.S. at least seems hyper-materialistic, where we are continually bombarded with a mantra of "lay up treasure" and endure the constant suggestion that we are measured by our ability to do so - where goes the Christian? What path does the Church show to us?
in hope,
Julian.

And this is the beauty of the holistic nature of the Church. We do have the teachings of the Holy Fathers that are accessable to us to learn from, regardless of whether our hierarches choose to emphasize them. We also have the witness of monasticism to help counterbalance the influence of the world. That is why monasticism as an institution was born! There is an interesting dynamic tension that can be seen at work between the monasteries and the parishes. I do not see this as a bad thing, as an engineer I know that some dynamic tension is often necessary to make things stronger.

Is it a "good thing" to emphasize golf and shopping and fine dining while doing the work of the Church? Based on my readings, I doubt you will find much support in the writings of the Fathers for such an idea. However, there is a story from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers about a hunter who encounters a group of monks in the woods who are sitting about a fire and laughing... (stop me if you've heard this one before)...

Herman the Pooh who likes stories

[Bxbhtjnr]

"(stop me if you've heard this one before)".
Ok, Herman, I haven't heard this one, please continue...

[Cyzkrahu]

"(stop me if you've heard this one before)".
Ok, Herman, I haven't heard this one, please continue...

Ah, I found it!

A hunter in the desert saw abba Antony enjoying himself with the brothers, and he was shocked. Wanting to show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs of the brothers, the old man said to him, "Put an arrow in your bow and shoot it." So he did. And the old man said, "Shoot another," and he did so. Then the old man said, "Shoot yet again," and the hunter replied, "If I bend my bow so much, I will break it." Then the old man said to him, "It is the same with the work of God. If we stretch the brothers beyond measure, they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to come down to meet their needs."From The Sayings of the Desert Fathers
Herman the Pooh who likes stories

[EHjEjdqe]

Direct and open criticism of churches is beyond the scope of this forum.

What about indirect and covert criticism of "some" churches?

[anatmob]

Ah, I found it!

A hunter in the desert saw abba Antony enjoying himself with the brothers, and he was shocked. Wanting to show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs of the brothers, the old man said to him, "Put an arrow in your bow and shoot it." So he did. And the old man said, "Shoot another," and he did so. Then the old man said, "Shoot yet again," and the hunter replied, "If I bend my bow so much, I will break it." Then the old man said to him, "It is the same with the work of God. If we stretch the brothers beyond measure, they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to come down to meet their needs."From The Sayings of the Desert Fathers

Herman the Pooh who likes stories Ok, obviously, that's a very good story. I've been meaning to read that little book, and haven't done so.
Incidentally, I wonder if the desert fathers ever saw a "River of Rancho Mirage" on their sojourns, and if so, I wonder if they were tempted to shop there?
Thanks, Herman, for digging that story up...
-Julian.

[Qeiafib]

Well, it would shock me if it were the only thing I saw in the Church. But on the contrary there, as has been said, many other references.
---
An interesting subject we can pull from this, is about the role of the wealthy in the Church. There is, for sure, a call for poverty, but at least physical, material poverty is not mandatory.

Most of the patriarchs of the OT considered abundance a blessing. In the NT, Our Lord clearly says to the "bad rich" that he *could* be saved as he was; his call for poverty was prompted because he said he wanted even more. Zacchaeus gave away a lot of his money but certainly not everything. Jesus could only have a proper tomb because the wealthy Joseph of Arimateia could provide it. I remember reading somewhere that in the first centuries the wealthy widows were the main sponsors of the Church.

The point is that the Church has material costs, and *high* material costs at that, that only the wealthy can pay.

One thing that impresses me a lot is that one of the very few times that Judas is given voice in the Gospel is to "protest" against spending luxurious fragrances with Jesus instead of giving to the poor and Jesus reproaches him. I think there is a place for wealthy and even a certain splendour in the Church, because God came to renew everything, even abundance.

Of course, it does not change the fact that there is a temptational aspect to wealthy. But there is also in food, sex, sleep, intelligence, beauty, etc. For all that I know, I, who am not wealthy, I am thankful to the Lord that there are wealthy people to support and sponsor the Church. I hope that they use this gift of abundance as the intelligent, the beautiful, the eloquent, the good singers, the good writers should use theirs: to God's glory more than to themselves. Said that, I am not surprised to see rich people indulge sometimes in the benefits of their gift, just like the intelligent, beautiful etc also do at times. As we do with our own gifts so many times. Let's pray for them and look at our sins to avoid falling prey to temptations.