[oronozopiy]

Hi all,

This is probably a very bad first post here, but I'll carry on anyway...

I'm an Orthodox Christian who mostly attends parishes (Antiochian, Greek, OCA, etc.) that celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and also attends the Mass of St. Gregory at WR parishes whenever possible. I recite Canons and pray the rosary, before which I invoke the Holy Spirit by reciting, "O Heavenly King..." I value the teaching of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose as much as I do any of the other Eastern Fathers as containing Apostolic Truth.

In short, I'm bi-ritual.

This rhythm of the spiritual life seems quite normal for me, but some fellow Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have (indirectly) given me the impression that this is syncretism, and prevents me from being fully immersed in one Christian tradition. I thought that one could only be syncretic with the practices of more than one religion. Thoughts? Both the Supplicatory Canons and the rosary are Christian.

I realize that regional and national traditions are important to people, which is why if my Orthodox friends (who go to eastern parishes) as me why I have a rosary wrapped around my wrist or a couple of pewter statues around, I don't want them to get offended by my answer...which more likely would be more smart-alecky which not everyone appreciates (like "we Orthodox still pray to Mary, don't we?" or something equally tongue-in-cheek).

To be quite honest, all I really care about is being an Orthodox Christian. In my mind, I'm only "eastern" as far as I was received into a parish that celebrates the eastern Divine Liturgy, and I'm only "western" in the sense that I was born and raised in the western hemisphere of the world.

So I guess my question is, is there any room for bi-ritual, Eastern/Western Orthodox Catholics like me? Practically, the only way this would come up was if someone asks, so how can I answer curiosities about my personal expression of faith in a godly manner?

This may seem like common sense, but I'm new to the process of considering how your personal spiritual choices affect others that I've found in the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Thank you.

[Quigoxito]

I don't think that sounds odd at all. Most of us are bi-ritual by necessity. I think the concern is with spiritual formation - what we do primarily is one rite (at home prayers) as each cursus of a liturgical tradition was developed so that it trains the Christian who follows it.

So - I'm Western rite normally, but often participate in both Arabo-Byzantine, Helleno-Byzantine, and Slavo-Byzantine worship (and, there is enough difference between those, so that going from Greek to Slavic is surely 'bi-ritual'.) Even more with the Old Rite such as they have in Erie, PA - which is very beautiful.

Otherwise, I think the whole paradigm of the rites being different enough so to require a term 'bi-ritual' is more native to late Roman Catholic thought, and not really part of our Orthodox understanding of worship. An Orthodox Christian simply in the worship of the local church - it is all the Orthodox ritual (whether Chrysostoma, Gregorian, etc.) In the Russian Church, we have had clergy serving multiple rites for the past two centuries - but without the idea that they were 'bi-ritual' (sometimes we say so as a concession to weakness) - a Russian Orthodox priest simply celebrates those rites of the Russian church: whether the New Rite, Old Rite, or Western rite (all have been approved by the Holy Synod.)

[lidya-sggf]

I have a friend who is always asking, "what's the point?" I think if one is focused on that, the rest will take care of itself.

[DoctoBuntonTen]

What about the ancient wisdom of just adopting the rite particular to where you happen to be worshiping?

A particular rite is the expression of the faith, but the western and eastern rites were happy to co-exist for centuries sharing in the same faith.

[sabbixsweraco]

Wow...I wasn't even aware that this would be an issue. I'm a total newbie though, I just became a catechumen a couple of weeks ago....our church (Ukrainian) doesn't have a building, so when we can't get the usual room so services are cancelled, I plan on going to an Antiochian church near my parents house. I figured as long as I go to services on Sunday, and follow the prayer rule the priest gave me at home...is there more than this I need to think about?

Also, why does it matter which church you attend? I don't mean hopping aorund all the time so that you don't get to know the people and the priest at one place regularly, but... I mean, if I moved, and the closest church was Greek Orthodox, would it be better for me to drive out to find Ukrainian one instead?

Sorry if I seem very ignorant with my questions.

[RedImmik]

I don't think that sounds odd at all. Most of us are bi-ritual by necessity. I think the concern is with spiritual formation - what we do primarily is one rite (at home prayers) as each cursus of a liturgical tradition was developed so that it trains the Christian who follows it.

So - I'm Western rite normally, but often participate in both Arabo-Byzantine, Helleno-Byzantine, and Slavo-Byzantine worship (and, there is enough difference between those, so that going from Greek to Slavic is surely 'bi-ritual'.) Even more with the Old Rite such as they have in Erie, PA - which is very beautiful.

Otherwise, I think the whole paradigm of the rites being different enough so to require a term 'bi-ritual' is more native to late Roman Catholic thought, and not really part of our Orthodox understanding of worship. An Orthodox Christian simply in the worship of the local church - it is all the Orthodox ritual (whether Chrysostoma, Gregorian, etc.) In the Russian Church, we have had clergy serving multiple rites for the past two centuries - but without the idea that they were 'bi-ritual' (sometimes we say so as a concession to weakness) - a Russian Orthodox priest simply celebrates those rites of the Russian church: whether the New Rite, Old Rite, or Western rite (all have been approved by the Holy Synod.)

Thanks for the reply, especially the last paragraph. It hints at one of my points in my post: it's all Christian anyway.

I have a friend who is always asking, "what's the point?" I think if one is focused on that, the rest will take care of itself.

Yes, missing the forest for the trees is enticing when being handed down such a rich Tradition.

Your friend is right.

What about the ancient wisdom of just adopting the rite particular to where you happen to be worshiping?

A particular rite is the expression of the faith, but the western and eastern rites were happy to co-exist for centuries sharing in the same faith.

Well, that's just it...in the ancient Church, with no phones, internet, etc. regional Christians practicing different rites might not have the access to the practices and devotions of other regions, and limited contact with Christians from other regions, that we do now. As it stands, I can google anything, and probably get it.

Personally, my devotional life is edifying.

And, I happen to be worshiping in the Byzantine rite and the Gregorian Mass. I'm a woman from two worlds at the moment.

Wow...I wasn't even aware that this would be an issue. I'm a total newbie though, I just became a catechumen a couple of weeks ago....our church (Ukrainian) doesn't have a building, so when we can't get the usual room so services are cancelled, I plan on going to an Antiochian church near my parents house. I figured as long as I go to services on Sunday, and follow the prayer rule the priest gave me at home...is there more than this I need to think about?

Also, why does it matter which church you attend? I don't mean hopping aorund all the time so that you don't get to know the people and the priest at one place regularly, but... I mean, if I moved, and the closest church was Greek Orthodox, would it be better for me to drive out to find Ukrainian one instead?

Sorry if I seem very ignorant with my questions.

My prayers for you as you come home to the Church. I get so excited talking to catechumens!

Don't let my frets disturb your peace--it's important to cultivate a relationship with a parish and your parish priest. My "primary" parish family has supported me throughout my journey through their prayers and I'm eternally grateful. With obedience to the prayer rule given to you, you do well.

You are not limited to the jurisdiction you happened to be received into in the Orthodox Church. You might want to get to know who your new Bishop is and the traditions of that particular parish, but that's really about it.

It's not ignorant at all! The more questions, the better.

[Nfxutkpa]

I think you will get a few differing opinions on this topic. The single best answer is what your priest tells you. My personal opinion, not that it counts, is we are a community of believers. By moving to different parishes each week, we are not participating as a comunity, but are alone. I see nothing wrong with visiting other parishes, but eventually you may want and need to settle down to one parish where the priest knows you well enough to be a spiritual father to you.

Paul

[GarryPaterson]

I think you will get a few differing opinions on this topic. The single best answer is what your priest tells you. My personal opinion, not that it counts, is we are a community of believers. By moving to different parishes each week, we are not participating as a comunity, but are alone. I see nothing wrong with visiting other parishes, but eventually you may want and need to settle down to one parish where the priest knows you well enough to be a spiritual father to you.

Paul

I do have a primary parish where I have settled. I just have to travel alot.

I hope thats clear to everyone.

[lookanddiscover]

I do have a primary parish where I have settled. I just have to travel alot.

I hope thats clear to everyone.

Thank you for this bit of knowledge Mary. It does make it hard to understand a person's circumstances via the internet without certain details, body language, voice inflections. etc... It is of course better to commune with the faithful than not at all when traveling.

Peace be to you.

Paul

[CializCialiscsqw]

It seems like the parish idea isn't so pervasive in places like Greece or Russia, where there are so many churches and people visit here and there for a service. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I got from going to those places and talking with people from there. I would guess people have something like a home parish, but not like Americans think of one, since our parishes developed out of a different historical and cultural milieu.

[onelovemp]

It seems like the parish idea isn't so pervasive in places like Greece or Russia, where there are so many churches and people visit here and there for a service. I can only speak from my own experience, but in Moscow we are definitely part of a parish where we go for confession and attend services on Sundays and for the major feasts. But during the week, we do visit monasteries. Basically, our liturgical experience is in our parish church but we go to evening services 'here and there' during the week. This is only possible because of the great number of churches and monasteries in Moscow (though these are a fraction of once existed).

[Johnny]

In Greece you can attend services in whatever church you like, but we definitely have our own parish church. The one we attend, St. Demetrius (I posted photos), is the one my husband (who is now 70) was baptised in. His father and grandfather were also baptised in this church, as was my son.

We sometimes attend services in other churches in our city, especially when the particular church's name day is being celebrated.

The choice of a spiritual father is an entirely different matter - as I mentioned in another thread I think. Your spiritual father need not be the priest of your parish church.

This person is so important in our Orthodox lives that choosing a spiritual father needs special thought and prayer beforehand. There is no guarantee, of course, that our choice will be correct, but we trust in God concerning this matter.

Effie

[BuyNetHosting]

Since we are going for First posts let me poke my first post in here too

and see how well we can all answer this... my short answer

FOLLOW THE SCRIPTURES


I have recently last week, had a thought that ecumenically, may or may not be the best way to worship...now here is why not:

We have Scriptures, Canons and Traditions, when someone of another Canon or Tradition or does not accept the same Scriptures, then I believe there is an avenue of influence that might cause someone undue discomfort unnecessarily, a schism or worse.

Look at the religions that have left the Scriptures this year and allowed non-scripturally based ministers preachers and priests into their fold (o,o) recently a schism that split a church right down the middle world wide!

The fact of the matter is that if your religion is the same scripturally in my humble opinion the Canon and Tradition are more or less moot point.
Follow the Scriptures and you will fit in with any Tradition.

Peace to all and let the discourse begin

By the way I also had this same question in the back of my mind.

Bro James

Hi all, In short, I'm bi-ritual. Is this syncretism?
is there any room for bi-ritual, Eastern/Western Orthodox Catholics like me?


Thank you.

[DfrtYhyu]

Since we are going for First posts let me poke my first post in here too

and see how well we can all answer this... my short answer

FOLLOW THE SCRIPTURES


I have recently last week, had a thought that ecumenically, may or may not be the best way to worship...now here is why not:

We have Scriptures, Canons and Traditions, when someone of another Canon or Tradition or does not accept the same Scriptures, then I believe there is an avenue of influence that might cause someone undue discomfort unnecessarily, a schism or worse.

Look at the religions that have left the Scriptures this year and allowed non-scripturally based ministers preachers and priests into their fold (o,o) recently a schism that split a church right down the middle world wide!

The fact of the matter is that if your religion is the same scripturally in my humble opinion the Canon and Tradition are more or less moot point.
Follow the Scriptures and you will fit in with any Tradition.

Peace to all and let the discourse begin

By the way I also had this same question in the back of my mind.

Bro James

Thank you for that!

It's very interesting that you should post what you did. Delving into the Scriptures has led and is leading me to a more God-pleasing life.

[Kokomoxcvcv]

Thank you for that!

It's very interesting that you should post what you did. Delving into the Scriptures has led and is leading me to a more God-pleasing life.

Mary I think it is interesting that I find this forum at the onset of my seminary training.

Thank you for that I felt very distressed when I wrote it but I have been orthodox my whole life but have only recently realized it and had to formally demit from all the churches I had joined through the years. When I demitted from one church the office manager was extremely upset at me as I went to this church and patronized the church for 5 years and was on the books for almost 30 years. I found out by an inocent conversation that because I had not formally demitted my membership that they received a higher portion of the offering monie$ based on membership.

I Love oversimplification and things in black and white, I do dream in color though oddly enough my brother dreams in black and white, but the Scriptures, however they are printed black and white sometimes with words in red and words in blue but, there are always black and white. While I sojourn upon this earth, I have found through the years that while reading the The LAW Scriptures the words are in color with movie screen clarity as to how they apply to me when Iread them.

Be Well
Your servant
James