[leareliovag]

Originally posted by Sprayber


For some reason I saw paiktis's name and automatically read it as American as well. yep, I just tend to associate certain posters with certain themes. I guess you can say I'm stereotyping

[Figelac]

am I the only one that misread the title as american genocide?

no - I'm guilty too

[leahjhburton]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
to the news of a commission. Well, here's the fine print in President Kocaryan's reply, according to more detailed news that I read today: Armenia tied the acceptance of the offer about such a commission to establishment of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia, opening of land borders and starting of direct trade, effectively presenting their acceptance as a "compromise" as if it has no merits on its own.

In a related development, 104 members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe signed a declaration supporting Erdogan's initiative.

Erdogan further offered to mutually open national archives without prejudice to the establishment any joint commission. That practically means Armenia opening its archives, as it refuses to do so whereas Turkey time and again declared its archives open.

[HwoRas1]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Remember that much of eastern Turkey, Kurdistan, and northwestern Persia used to be part of the Armenian Kingdom so Armenians were settled in a large area. Notice how their current state is tiny. The Armenians were only a majority in a small portion of their historic territory. Most of the areas had a plurality of Turks, then Kurds, then Armenians. History has not been kind to them.

Remember that the Brits sponsored many revolts in the Ottoman Empire during the war. I don't find it unlikely that there was a widespread Armenian uprising. That, however, in no way justifies the response.

The Turks had turned nastier and nastier since the Russians handed them their ass in the 1870s, and they blaimed on the Christians living in their territories.

[TZids16I]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Greeks and their Turkophobia...

Not that the genocide wasn't tragic though.

[kristloken]

It's good to see some level of cooperation between Turkey and Armenia on this issue.

[rasiasertew]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Armenians kinda remind me of the Albanian Kosovars. They all claim, "We didn't do nothing. We were minding our own business when the evil Serbs/Turks came and slaughtered us!" Funny how Pattycakes can be on opposite sides of the same phenomenon.

#1, nothing anyone does deserves Genocide as a response.

#2, the Armenians weren't innocent. They were attempting to ethnically cleanse their area at the same time as rising up against the Ottoman Empire during the World War. You've been influenced by Turkish propaganda, despite all its silliness. How could Armenians, especially if You accept Turkish statistics which claim 10-20, 33 in one case percentage of Armenians in Western Armenia,
could engage in ethnic cleansing, under Turkish rule?
The holocaust of Armenians (or whatever You call it) took place before Russians entered the area, that is when Armenians could actually do something to Muslim population. Also, Armenian revolts started in result of "deportation" orders, not deportations were the result of it.
Also, deportation concerned also Armenians of areas far from disorders or war front.

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Armenians were only a majority in a small portion of their historic territory. Most of the areas had a plurality of Turks, then Kurds, then Armenians. History has not been kind to them. Only when You accept unreliable Turkish stats.

Remember that the Brits sponsored many revolts in the Ottoman Empire during the war. I don't find it unlikely that there was a widespread Armenian uprising. That, however, in no way justifies the response. Brits didn't support uprisings as such. Arabs did not revolt in Syria. Brits just marched on it with Arabs of Higaz. That's a difference.

[quote]
Originally posted by Ancyrean


Well, it was pretty widespread. If you take a tour of Eastern Turkey, you'd be surprised how vividly those attacks and consequent killings are remembered even today. I'm sure that if Germany didn't lose the war, You could hear nice stories from elderly Germans about the Jews as well.
Anyway, if there were some harms by Armenians, they could take place during Russian occupation, after the "deportation". Before that, Armenians, again I say, especially if You accept they were a tiny minority, could not do much.


It's true that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in the following relocations, but the Armenian claim of 1.5 million casualties are flatly exaggerated to increase the sense of victimhood. The overall number of Armenians in the whole of the Empire (including the Middle East) was less than 1.3 million, according to the Ottoman censuses and other sources quote similar numbers as well. Those which base on Ottoman census, in which best interest was to lower the number of Armenians as much as it could.
And You know very well that Turkish gouverment and historians are not reliable in this matter. Armenian question was part of official propaganda for 90 years.

I know many instances when, upon your diclosure of your being Turkish, Armenians withdraw a hand they extended upon introduction, hang up the phone in your face, blush in anger and walk the other way, drop their smile in a sudden surge of hatred, etc etc etc. Why? As someone's said, it's because Turks never apologised


The emotional and subjective intensity of Armenians make it so hard to communicate with them As if Turks were better. And Armenians have more reasons to be emotional in that matter.

But this can't be in the form of a one sided act, as the issue in question did not involve only one side's suffering. Because the sides were not equal rivals and they did not suffer equally

[JEWELMARGY]

The Armenians kinda remind me of the Albanian Kosovars. They all claim, "We didn't do nothing. We were minding our own business when the evil Serbs/Turks came and slaughtered us!" Funny how Pattycakes can be on opposite sides of the same phenomenon.

#1, nothing anyone does deserves Genocide as a response.

#2, the Armenians weren't innocent. They were attempting to ethnically cleanse their area at the same time as rising up against the Ottoman Empire during the World War.

[Angelinaaiiiiiiiii]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
BTW, Ancryon, the official Ottoman statistics of the Armenian population was 1.9 million, but that is considered exceedingly unreliable and the vast majority of scholoars think the number was probably twice that, both because the Ottomans wanted to keep the numbers down and the Armenians wanted to keep the numbers down.

Fa'iz El-Ghusein the Kaimakam of Kharpout wrote in his book, that according to the Ottoman official statistics there were about 1,9 million Armenian's in the Ottoman Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman...ian_Population

That article ends with:
Most Western scholars believe the totality of the Armenian population within the Empire prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.1 million.

So a figure of 1.5 million dead Armenians is likely incorrect. The following numbers are for the whole of the Ottoman Empire:

- The Ottoman census of 1914 cites the number of Armenians as 1,295,000,
- Encyclopedia Brittanica's contemporary edition cites it as 1.5 million,
- Two contemporary historians quote 1.4 million (Contentson), and 1,345,000 (Lynch)
- Many other contemporary historians give similar figures: Cliar Price: 1.5 million, A. Powell: 1.5 million, Walker: 1.5-2 million, Lynch: 1,325,000, Cuinet: 1,475,00 (for Asian Turkey)
- Annual register of London for that time cites 1,056,000,
- The Armenian Delegation (headed by Bogos Noubar) to Paris Conference of 1918 gave a number of 1,300,000 for 1914. Noubar also noted that up to 700.000 Armenians emigrated out of Turkey during WWI.
- The Armenian Patriarchate in Turkey gave numbers that widely conflicted with itself at various different occasions (from as low as 1,780,000 to an improbable 3 million!)

So it is probably safe to say the overall number of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before WWI was around 1.5 million. Alas, Armenians worldwide claim that number instead corresponds to the number of deaths during that time...

[payporanymn]

When?
During the war of independence?
during the balkan war I?
or during the exchange of populations after 1922?

[rbVmVlQ2]

Originally posted by paiktis22
When?
During the war of independence?
during the balkan war I?
or during the exchange of populations after 1922? All of the above, plus the 2nd Balkan War.

[leahjhburton]

[zlZ95pjt]

Some people take my nationality as something negative when it comes to talking about that subject but that's ok.
In Balakian's book, which starts by simply describing his life in the US, there are documents included which substantiate that it was indeed a genocide in what regards that it was done by using methods of genocide. That it was not merely a war.

The suprising part is reading that the main "thinker" behind that method of mass extermination (but also the rhetoric behind the formulation of the idenity of the "new turk") used by the ottomans were german thinkers a little bit before WW2 happened. This is also notesworthy. There is ample correspondance between turks officials and german "philosophers"/officials about the armenian "problem" and "how" to handle it but most freakishly important: "why" to handle it like that.
I have to say that Germany is one of the countries which has recognized the armenian genocide.

PS
I also understand the "mentality" of Ancyrean and his country. Now is he simply describing his country's mentality or is that also his own? The lines sometimes get blurred and it doesn't only happen to him. But I understand how "Turkey" thinks that way. It's too long to explain, things of the past affect the present still in these parts of the world.

[Wluwsdtn]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
The Armenian genocide never happened. It's a Jewish conspiracy to make the Holocaust shine in comparison. Congratulations! Whichever way you interpret that post, the writer still comes out looking dumber than a sack of spanners!

[LarryG1978]

edit: Wrong thread.

[excivaamome]

American genocide

[weluvjessicaalba]

The Armenian genocide never happened. It's a Jewish conspiracy to make the Holocaust shine in comparison.

[Kemapreedasse]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Today many Armenians do not know anything about what the Turks have to say on the matter and they grow up with intense hatred toward Turkey and Turks. I know many instances when, upon your diclosure of your being Turkish, Armenians withdraw a hand they extended upon introduction, hang up the phone in your face, blush in anger and walk the other way, drop their smile in a sudden surge of hatred, etc etc etc. Why? Because they are told that Turks killed their grandfathers I don't think so. If some Armenians do that is because Turkey has not recognized the genocide. Should Greeks, French, British, Russians and people of Jewish religion walk away in anger when meeting a German? They don't, generally, because post war Germany did recognize what happened. Or was made to, in any case the victim has been to an extend justified.

About Turkophobia and what not, this was an anniversary and since noone else made a thread about it, I might as well do. Your conclusions about blah blah is your own.

[untostaronaf]

Che, there were rebels attacking Turkish settlements but it wasn't as wide spread as some make it out. The Turkish response was to kill or ethnically cleans all Armenians from Ottoman territory. Remember that much of eastern Turkey, Kurdistan, and northwestern Persia used to be part of the Armenian Kingdom so Armenians were settled in a large area. Notice how their current state is tiny.

[CowextetleSix]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

Then again, you have to bear two factors in mind.

Firstly- it wasn't the first genocidal policy against the Armenians, was it? In fact it was the second in 20 years.

Secondly- it wasn't just Armenians. There were Anatolians and Assyrians too. The first Armenian uprisings took place in late 19th century, with no little aid from tsarist Russia. The nationalist Armenian organisations was established after the war of 1878, and they explicitly stated in their charters that "agitation and terror were needed to elevate the spirit of the people" that "terror is to be used as a method of operation", the best time to rise is preferably when the Ottomans are in war etc etc. So, the central government moved in to crush the rebellion and yes, many people regrettably died at the time (1890s). How does this stand as proof of genocidal intent, let alone "genocidal policy"??

Furthermore, as the British Ambassador in Istanbul in 1890 observed when the Armenians rose at that time, the aim of the Armenian revolutionaries was to stir disturbances, get the Ottomans react with violence, and get foreign powers to intervene at that time. It was not as straightorward as you seem to assume.