[antonyandruleit]

dealing drugs may be illegal, but it aint a crime

[Narkeere]

Thanks, Heraclitus. I never knew I'd lived outside Europe until you told me.

[BodoidearoLew]

Please could you post the numbers of drug dealers there are in France, broken down by ethnic origin?

This seems at first hard to do, since the French state dosen't break stats down by ethnicity (not even on the census), but if you read all the quoted material you should notice the following:

"All you have to do, as I have done, is to consult the listings of the DCS (Central Security Bureau) of the Ministry of the Interior, to find that more than 50% of reported crimes were the work of young people whose family name sounds African or Maghrebin." But be honest for a second, do you honestly think there is any Western nation with a sizable Black minority where that minority is not responsible for a disproportionate (adjusted for their SES) fraction of crimes compared to the natives? And do you think there is a European country where the same isn't true of Arabs?

[HowardtheDuck]

This is at first hard to do

It's not hard to do.

It's impossible.

[movlabk]

In any case countries that do collect ethnic stats show the same general pattern he claims to have found here can be proven for every Western country that does collect stats based on ethnicity. Why would France, of all places, be the exception?

[ftpsoft]

Reported crimes, not solved ones.

So they know the names of who did it, but they aren't solved?

[Alina20100]

So they know the names of who did it, but they aren't solved?

Damn, don't respond so quickly. I need time to edit posts.

Anycase perhaps the quote is mistranslated, I guess 50% of solved crimes is probably what he describes. I really doubt, especially considering the support he god, that there could be a mistake that simple in all of this.

[reawnvam]

Have you ever broken the law, Hera? I have.

New topic- are stats in "solved" crimes driven by the type of people committing crimes, or are they more a reflection of where society goes looking for it?

[QysnZWB4]

New topic- are stats in "solved" crimes driven by the type of people committing crimes, or are they more a reflection of where society goes looking for it?

This is a reasonable argument.

However why is the rate of reported crimes higher in low class African and Arab neighborhoods than in low class European ones? And why is the same true in the US, with the don't snitch culture among lower class Blacks?

Remember in the US most of the victims of Black crime are other Blacks. Do poor Whites share more solidarity with each other than poor Blacks and are less likley to report crimes? Seems far fetched.

[Hofonom]

That's not what I meant. I was talking about the allegedly "European" alleged "city" of Malmö that allegedly "expelled" its alleged "Jews" with alleged "threats and violence".

It's odd that you decry "hate" speech legislation when most of the "crimes" against Jews in Malmö, which were the basis of the media outcry last year, are of that same nature.

Hate speech legislation makes it impossible to talk about the root cause of the crimes against the Jews in Malmo.

Also let me present you with a hypothetical case:
A Swedish kid gets severely beaten up while he is taunted as a infidel by a few Muslim kids.
A Muslim kid gets severely beaten up while he is taunted as a Muslim by a few Swedish kids.

In which case is there a higher % of a hate crime being reported in addition to the base charge?
Just by looking at convictions and compare them to polled opinions (of antisemitic, racist or homophobic sentiments) we can see that in all the countries the legislation is rarely used to protect natives, be they Christian, Atheist or Jewish (unless the assailants on the Jews happens to be other native borns, then they are protected). In practical terms such legislation does diddly squat for Jews assaulted by any of the protected ethnicities.

[Npbfamgt]

Hate speech legislation makes it impossible to talk about the root cause of the crimes against the Jews in Malmo.

If it's impossible to discuss I've yet to notice it, but I digress. In this thread Heraclitus goes way overboard with the alarmism regarding one case in France that doesn't even appear to have led to a conviction (yet?).

The other point is that "crimes against Jews" is in itself a hate crimes category. If hate crimes are not a good thing to record separately, then that includes anti-semitic crimes. Jews aren't special. Do you agree or not? In other words, is your position consistent or not, because it appears like it isn't.

Just by looking at convictions and compare them to polled opinions (of antisemitic, racist or homophobic sentiments) we can see that in all the countries the legislation is rarely used to protect natives, be they Christian, Atheist or Jewish (unless the assailants on the Jews happens to be other native borns, then they are protected). In practical terms such legislation does diddly squat for Jews assaulted by any of the protected ethnicities. Hate crimes reported in this country are usually trifles. In the vast number of cases it's speech (insults), threats, vandalism, even discrimination is called a hate crime. Maybe singling them out as hate crimes has an effect, maybe it doesn't. I notice you've already made up your mind on that but I haven't. Some people think that's an irrelevant consideration and that it's important for society to make a "statement". I disagree, but it's not one of my major personal concerns.

[shihoodiacarf]

Not making any comments on this thread, except that it's a fact that Jews are hated in Sweden and nobody really does anything about it. Europe is one of the worst place for Jewish people to be in, unfortunately. Open racism against Jews is tolerated, and to say this is - of course - racist.

[Ruilnasr]

So is this yet another Hera thread on race?

Call me shocked.

[Frierlovene]

Don't you realize that banning one type of political speech makes it that much easier to ban others?

Free speech should be as free as possible. Only restrictions we have around here are on fraudulent claims, or directly inciting violence. Holocaust deniers can be proven wrong in open discussion without relying on criminal sanctions.

All right! The NRA speaks out at last!

[strmini]

Well you're right there's no free speech in Switzerland, at least:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/wo...e/10swiss.html

A prominent Turkish politician was convicted Friday of breaching Swiss antiracism laws by saying that the early 20th-century killing of Armenians could not be described as genocide.

The Turkish Foreign Ministry reacted swiftly to the decision, saying in a statement that it was saddened by the Swiss court’s ruling to punish the politician, Dogu Perincek, leader of the Turkish Workers’ Party, and to ignore “his freedom of expression.”

Mr. Perincek was ordered to pay a fine of $2,450; an additional penalty of $7,360 was suspended.

He was charged with breaking Swiss law by denying during a visit to Switzerland in 2005 that the World War I era killings of up to 1.5 million Armenians amounted to genocide. He has since repeated his statements, including at his trial this week.

In Turkey it is a crime to use the word genocide to describe the killings.

Mr. Perincek accused the judge of “racist hatred” toward Turkey and said he would appeal the verdict to Switzerland’s supreme court.

If necessary, Mr. Perincek told Turkey’s government-run Anatolia news agency, he would take his case to the European Court of Human Rights.

In his closing statement, Judge Pierre-Henri Winzap described the defendant as an intelligent and cultivated person but added that to deny the Armenian genocide was an arrogant provocation because it was an accepted historical fact. Most Western governments consider the killings genocide.

Switzerland’s antiracism legislation has previously been applied to Holocaust denial.

The case has caused diplomatic tension between Switzerland and Turkey, which insists that Armenians were killed in civil unrest during the tumultuous collapse of the Ottoman Empire and not in a planned campaign of genocide.

In its response to the verdict the Turkish Foreign Ministry called into question the legitimacy of the Swiss law and said the case was “inappropriate, baseless and debatable in every circumstance.”

[actifadepette]

Hera, you're forgetting the other thing that this BERBER Zemmour said which is cause for the concern:

At first, on France Ô, the facilitator who combines the positions Figaro , RTL, France 2 and i-TV said that employers "have the right" to refuse to employ Arabs or Blacks. For that, he was accused of "incitement to discrimination" . It is interesting that a Berber would say that.

[himecthekWiff]

Well you're right there's no free speech in Switzerland, at least:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/wo...e/10swiss.html

I think saying 'no free speech' when they have a speech restriction that the US doesn't have is exaggerating.

[11Woxsepmoomo]

I think saying 'no free speech' when they have a speech restriction that the US doesn't have is exaggerating.

The man was fined thousands of dollars for expressing an opinion. I disagree with his opinion, but the man should be free to express it without the threat of prosecution.

[Cxcvvfbgtr]

HA HA HA IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE FELCH LIKES GUNS!

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

Hera, you're forgetting the other thing that this BERBER Zemmour said which is cause for the concern:

It is interesting that a Berber would say that.

I dont find it suprising. There are many prominent European figures of immigrant backround which critize their own communites for their failings, some of them are quite nonPC.

However this case is slightly different since his parents where Berber Jews, and he attended a Jewish high school. In any case I didn't think it was relevant.