[sesIgnose]

I've been thinking about something GC said the other day. She mentioned that she hit the sand on her backswing. Depending on where your ball is in the bunker - I can see how this may happen. I searched the USGA site, but can't figure out whether this would incur a penalty. If you hit the sand on your way back, would this be considered testing the sand or grounding your club?

[GinaIsWild]

It's a penalty, you can't hit the sand on your backswing.

It's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

[anolbom]

I'm still learning, so we don't really go by the rules haa haa, but yes, I do know that you can't touch the sand with your club when you address the ball, etc

[sesIgnose]

I'm still learning, so we don't really go by the rules haa haa, but yes, I do know that you can't touch the sand with your club when you address the ball, etc

I wasn't asking for you, but for me. I wasn't sure if you accidently caught sand on your way back if that was an issue and apparently it is.

Does anyone have the actual rule. As I said - I can't find it.

[Rqqneujr]

Same as if you are in a hazard (red staked area). I was in a tournament and on my backswing hit the grass as my ball was sitting down in the grassy hazard and incurred a penalty.

[Uojeyak]

Same as if you are in a hazard (red staked area). I was in a tournament and on my backswing hit the grass as my ball was sitting down in the grassy hazard and incurred a penalty.

How can you not hit grass on your backswing in a situation like this? I can understand sand but this one has me stumped.

[GinaIsWild]

I wasn't asking for you, but for me. I wasn't sure if you accidently caught sand on your way back if that was an issue and apparently it is.

Does anyone have the actual rule. As I said - I can't find it.

USGA Rules and Descisions:

13-4/31 Touching Sand in Bunker During Backswing

Q. A player playing a shot in a bunker accidentally touched the sand when making his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player was in breach of Rule 13-4b when he touched the ground in the bunker with his club before making the stroke — see Definition of "Stroke."

USGA Rule 13-3b

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard

Definition of Stroke:

Stroke
A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

[sesIgnose]

Thanks Biggsy - obviously, I wasn't putting in the right keywords.

[Rqqneujr]

How can you not hit grass on your backswing in a situation like this? I can understand sand but this one has me stumped.

You have to come in with a steep swing. If the grass was say 1-2ft high, I think you couldn't really have a backswing and only a forward swing to avoid hitting the grass. In my case the grass was only about 3-4 inches and not thinking I addressed the ball as if in the rough even though it was in a red staked area. Kind of sucked.

[GinaIsWild]

How can you not hit grass on your backswing in a situation like this? I can understand sand but this one has me stumped.

Come back steeper in your backswing or take relief and incur a penalty.

A bunker is considered a hazard just like playing in a red staked area.

I consider playing golf by the rule of the book like driving. You can't drive more than a mile without breaking some sort of traffic law.

[GinaIsWild]

Thanks Biggsy - obviously, I wasn't putting in the right keywords.

Welcome.

[Uojeyak]

USGA Rules and Descisions:

13-4/31 Touching Sand in Bunker During Backswing

Q. A player playing a shot in a bunker accidentally touched the sand when making his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player was in breach of Rule 13-4b when he touched the ground in the bunker with his club before making the stroke — see Definition of "Stroke."

USGA Rule 13-3b

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard

Definition of Stroke:

Stroke
A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

I see forward movement but no mention of rearward......except in the sand rule.

[GinaIsWild]

I see forward movement but no mention of rearward......except in the sand rule.

USGA made a decision on the backswing question that I posted. Decision 13-4/31 addresses the backswing issue.

USGA: Rules and Decisions


Here is another decision for the backswing/swing hitting the ground in a hazard.


13-4/4 Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard
Q. A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A. No — see Note to Rule 13-4. However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard. (Revised)

When Club Grounded in Grass — See 18-2b/5.

13-4/5 Touching Mound Made by Burrowing Animal with Backswing in Bunker
Q. A player's ball and a mound made by a burrowing animal are in a bunker. The mound interferes with the player's backswing, but the player elects not to take relief under Rule 25-1b(ii). During his backswing, the player's club touches the mound. Is the player in breach of Rule 13-4?

A. Yes. Rule 13-4 prohibits touching the ground in a hazard with a club before making a stroke, which is the forward movement of the club. In a hazard, a mound made by a burrowing animal is ground in the hazard.

13-4/6 Touching Solidly Embedded Stone in Hazard with Club During Backswing
Q. A player's ball lies in a hazard. In making his backswing for the stroke, the player's club touches a solidly embedded stone in the hazard. Is the stone considered "ground in the hazard"?

A. Yes.

13-4/32 Club Touches Partially Embedded Pine Needle on Backswing in Bunker
Q. A player whose ball lies in a bunker touches a partially embedded pine needle with his club on his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player is in breach of Rule 13-4c. A partially embedded pine needle is not solidly embedded and is not considered to be fixed; therefore, it is a loose impediment (see Definition of "Loose Impediments").

13-4/33 Bunker Covered by Leaves; Player Touches Leaves During Backswing
Q. A player hits a ball into a bunker which is covered by leaves (loose impediments). The player removes as many leaves as will enable him to see a part of the ball in accordance with Rule 12-1. If the player then touches some of the leaves on his backswing, is he in breach of the Rules?

A. Yes. If the player touches leaves on his backswing, he is in breach of Rule 13-4c which prohibits a player from touching a loose impediment in a hazard before making a stroke in the hazard. A stroke does not begin until after the completion of the player's backswing — see Definition of "Stroke."

If fallen leaves in bunkers seasonally create an abnormal problem, the Committee may make a Local Rule declaring accumulations of leaves in bunkers to be ground under repair. Rule 25-1b(ii) would then apply.

13-4/34 Touching Bare Earth Wall of Bunker on Backswing
Q. In playing from a bunker, a player touches a bare earth wall of the bunker with his club on his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player touched the ground in the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4b. The Note to Rule 13-4 permits a player's club to touch an obstruction (such as an artificial wall) on his backswing. However, an earth wall of a bunker is not an artificial wall.

Local Rule for Bunker Faces Consisting of Stacked Turf — See 33-8/39.

13-4/0.5 Meaning of "Test the Condition of the Hazard" in Rule 13-4a
Q. What is meant by "test the condition of the hazard" in Rule 13-4a?

A. The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;

• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;

• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;

• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or

• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;

• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g., when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);

• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);

• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);

• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or

• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing
in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to
Rule 13-4). (New)

[GinaIsWild]

Same as if you are in a hazard (red staked area). I was in a tournament and on my backswing hit the grass as my ball was sitting down in the grassy hazard and incurred a penalty.

Here you go Vegan

13-4/8 When Club Touches Ground in Grass in Water Hazard
Q. If a player's ball lies in a water hazard, when is his club in tall grass considered to be touching the ground in the water hazard, in breach of Rule 13-4b?

A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club (i.e., when the club is grounded). (New)

[Rqqneujr]

Here you go Vegan

13-4/8 When Club Touches Ground in Grass in Water Hazard
Q. If a player's ball lies in a water hazard, when is his club in tall grass considered to be touching the ground in the water hazard, in breach of Rule 13-4b?

A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club (i.e., when the club is grounded). (New)

My situation was a little different in the hazard was red staked, however, there was no water. It was where a creek once ran through, and occasionally is used as run off when it rains here, but 99% of the time it is dry. When not filled with water all that remains is tall grass. When I made my back swing I hit the grass on the edge of the dry creek bed and incurred a penalty. Maybe after reading this I shouldn't have received the penalty? At the time it didn't matter as I was only in contention for last place, but for future reference I better clarify it, as it is my home course and I play tournaments 2 times a month or more here.

[poRmawayncmop]

I wasn't asking for you, but for me. I wasn't sure if you accidently caught sand on your way back if that was an issue and apparently it is.

Does anyone have the actual rule. As I said - I can't find it.

You can't touch the sand, nor can you touch a loose impediment during your take away. Rule 13-4:

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard. See also Decisions 13-4/5, 13-4/6, 13-4/31, 13-4/32, 13-4/33, 13-4/34. All of these decisions cover similar acts.

[Uojeyak]

USGA made a decision on the backswing question that I posted. Decision 13-4/31 addresses the backswing issue.

USGA: Rules and Decisions


Here is another decision for the backswing/swing hitting the ground in a hazard.


13-4/4 Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard
Q. A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A. No — see Note to Rule 13-4. However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard. (Revised)

When Club Grounded in Grass — See 18-2b/5.

13-4/5 Touching Mound Made by Burrowing Animal with Backswing in Bunker
Q. A player's ball and a mound made by a burrowing animal are in a bunker. The mound interferes with the player's backswing, but the player elects not to take relief under Rule 25-1b(ii). During his backswing, the player's club touches the mound. Is the player in breach of Rule 13-4?

A. Yes. Rule 13-4 prohibits touching the ground in a hazard with a club before making a stroke, which is the forward movement of the club. In a hazard, a mound made by a burrowing animal is ground in the hazard.

13-4/6 Touching Solidly Embedded Stone in Hazard with Club During Backswing
Q. A player's ball lies in a hazard. In making his backswing for the stroke, the player's club touches a solidly embedded stone in the hazard. Is the stone considered "ground in the hazard"?

A. Yes.

13-4/32 Club Touches Partially Embedded Pine Needle on Backswing in Bunker
Q. A player whose ball lies in a bunker touches a partially embedded pine needle with his club on his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player is in breach of Rule 13-4c. A partially embedded pine needle is not solidly embedded and is not considered to be fixed; therefore, it is a loose impediment (see Definition of "Loose Impediments").

13-4/33 Bunker Covered by Leaves; Player Touches Leaves During Backswing
Q. A player hits a ball into a bunker which is covered by leaves (loose impediments). The player removes as many leaves as will enable him to see a part of the ball in accordance with Rule 12-1. If the player then touches some of the leaves on his backswing, is he in breach of the Rules?

A. Yes. If the player touches leaves on his backswing, he is in breach of Rule 13-4c which prohibits a player from touching a loose impediment in a hazard before making a stroke in the hazard. A stroke does not begin until after the completion of the player's backswing — see Definition of "Stroke."

If fallen leaves in bunkers seasonally create an abnormal problem, the Committee may make a Local Rule declaring accumulations of leaves in bunkers to be ground under repair. Rule 25-1b(ii) would then apply.

13-4/34 Touching Bare Earth Wall of Bunker on Backswing
Q. In playing from a bunker, a player touches a bare earth wall of the bunker with his club on his backswing. What is the ruling?

A. The player touched the ground in the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4b. The Note to Rule 13-4 permits a player's club to touch an obstruction (such as an artificial wall) on his backswing. However, an earth wall of a bunker is not an artificial wall.

Local Rule for Bunker Faces Consisting of Stacked Turf — See 33-8/39.

13-4/0.5 Meaning of "Test the Condition of the Hazard" in Rule 13-4a
Q. What is meant by "test the condition of the hazard" in Rule 13-4a?

A. The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;

• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;

• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;

• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or

• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;

• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g., when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);

• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);

• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);

• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or

• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing
in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to
Rule 13-4). (New)

OH this is why you have to love golf..so many rules.It is just like life.

[poRmawayncmop]

Same as if you are in a hazard (red staked area). I was in a tournament and on my backswing hit the grass as my ball was sitting down in the grassy hazard and incurred a penalty.

How can you not hit grass on your backswing in a situation like this? I can understand sand but this one has me stumped.

Vegan, you were penalized needlessly. There is no penalty for touching the grass in a hazard as long as nothing was done to test the surface and you did not ground your club. The restriction is for touching the ground, water (in a water hazard), or any loose impediment in a hazard (a bunker is hazard). There is no prohibition for touching grass growing in a hazard, as long as it doesn't improve your lie or the area of your intended swing, it doesn't constitute testing the condition of the hazard (i.e touching the ground), and it doesn't meet the definition of "grounding", (the club's weight resting on the grass).

13-4/4 Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard

Q. A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A. No — see Note to Rule 13-4. However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard. (Revised)

When Club Grounded in Grass — See 18-2b/5.

[GinaIsWild]

Vegan, you were penalized needlessly. There is no penalty for touching the grass in a hazard as long as nothing was done to test the surface and you did not ground your club. The restriction is for touching the ground, water (in a water hazard), or any loose impediment in a hazard (a bunker is hazard). There is no prohibition for touching grass growing in a hazard, as long as it doesn't improve your lie or the area of your intended swing, it doesn't constitute testing the condition of the hazard (i.e touching the ground), and it doesn't meet the definition of "grounding", (the club's weight resting on the grass).

I was discussing this with someone earlier and I am in a agreement, I don't think you should have been penalized.

[Bugamerka]

My situation was a little different in the hazard was red staked, however, there was no water. It was where a creek once ran through, and occasionally is used as run off when it rains here, but 99% of the time it is dry. When not filled with water all that remains is tall grass. When I made my back swing I hit the grass on the edge of the dry creek bed and incurred a penalty. Maybe after reading this I shouldn't have received the penalty? At the time it didn't matter as I was only in contention for last place, but for future reference I better clarify it, as it is my home course and I play tournaments 2 times a month or more here.

Sounds like you took an unnecessary penalty.

When in a hazard, you can touch any growing thing (grass included) both while addressing and in the making of your stroke. You simply can't touch the club against the ground. What you can't do is break the grass or move it aside, unless it happens while fairly taking your stance or while making your swing, that part the same as it is anywhere through the green. The club can only touch the ground as you strike (at) the ball.