[Zebrabitch]

Long story, but bare with me cuz I need some advice. Tonight I'm in golf league right, normally I walk but tonight was super windy and just as I was walking to my tee another member who lives on the course rode by as a passenger on another member's cart, he tosses me his cart key and says "here you go, take mine" seeing how windy it was and all I decided to park my Speed Cart and hop in the ride. As I'm getting ready to pull away our head pro says "you know you still gotta pay for that right?" I kinda laugh a bit and he says, "no, I'm serious, you gotta pay a trail fee." So I said yeah I'll get you but now everyone in my group was already on the way to our hole for the shotgun start so I had to go. As I'm out on the course I come across the owner of the cart and I tell him the story so far and he was just beside himself amazed that he would bring that up. I also brought it up to everyone in my group and none of them could believe the guy brought it up either. Fast forward, we're done now and being that tonight is the final night they serve a grilled steak and give us two drink tickets as well. I go in the shop to get the tickets and as I'm walking away he says "hey, did you wanna settle up that trail fee?" I turn around and calmly say, "you know I just don't quite get it, wasn't this cart already registered and paid a trail fee?" he replies back, "yeah for the owner". I then proceed to tell him I don't quite understand since I know that every week there are several members who ride with cart owners without paying such fee, heck I've done it myself a few times. So my reply was that I'd rather come back in and discuss it when I have a chance to calm down and when there is nobody else around (room was full). He then points his finger in my face and goes on to explain how he told me of the trail fee and I knew it so I had to pay it, I tell him then if he wants it, he'll need to send me a bill. As I'm walking out he says, "hey, why don't you give me back those drink tickets?" so I turn around and tossed them into him and said that he can have his drink tickets and he can kiss my a$$ when 2010 Men's Club starts, I will not be back.

Now here's a little background, this is important to understand a little bit. First of all I told him that I would come back and talk when I had a chance to cool down, I had full intentions on paying the trail fee if he can explain how I should have to owe it, again, when there was not a room full of members. Once he pointed his finger in my face he completely crossed a line and disrespected me. I have been a member of this course for 7 years and have never once asked for or expected anything for free. My whole stance was that I know people are riding without having to pay. Background piece 2, he and the cart owner had a major blow out over the use of cart paths on one of our par 3s. Basically the owner drove across the short "fairway" just short of the green and the pro flipped on him, ultimately the cart owner left their match and later in the clubhouse the pro again took up the matter in a rather headed discussion right in front of other members. So the pro had already had an issue with the owner of this cart beforehand.

So once I got home I was still fuming over this and I wrote him the following email.... I want to explain my point a little further, first of all I planned on paying the trail fee, I had 2 hours to think about before finishing my round and even though everyone in my group supported my thoughts that it was ridiculous for you to bring that up. I was going to pay it, I don't agree with it but I'd pay it- I even told you in the pro shop that I would rather stop back in after I cooled down on it because I didn't want to create more than there was over it. Then you point your finger at me and scold me like I'm some school kid, don't ever disrespect me like that again. Let's remember here, my stance was to talk about it when there wasn't a room full of people, but just like you did with your last issue with Venner on the cart path thing, you chose to take the route of showing disrespect and a pure lack of class on your part.

I've been in that men's club for as long as any other person there, you would think if anything I would deserve a little thing like a trail fee, I know for a fact that there are members every single week riding with cart owners without paying a trail fee, are you kidding me? It's not even a matter of trying to get something for free now, as I said, I would pay the fee, but when you point your finger at me and disrespect me like that I am done. I will not be back in 2010 Men's Club, and I hate to say this because it is a nice course and usually a well run facility, but I would be absolutely shocked if I'm the only one who chooses to go elsewhere. As *cart owner* said, you are a very unprofessional "professional" and you should really consider thinking before you act and disrespect your members.

I would be happy to hear your side of things, but I will not stand toe to toe and point fingers back and forth over this. Am I out of line or honestly what do you think? Thanks!!!

[erubresen]

The trail fee had already been paid for that particular cart, what difference does it make who's driving it? Sounds like this Pro is simply being an asshat.

[eladiopsislab]

I think you handled that pretty well by walking away, and your email was appropriate. I would have copied in the club president/owner/manager in your email though.

[standaman]

Doesn't sound like you were out of line to me. In fact, your suggestion to discuss the issue in a more private setting was very level headed. Sounds to me like this guy is jerk. He showed you no respect and from what you're saying, he has shown little respect to others.

Does he own this golf course, or is he an employee? Private or semi-private club? If he works for the members, maybe it's time he's shown the door. There are few clubs that can afford to have their pro driving away members. If he felt you really should pay that fee, and it sounds like you were probably willing even though it bothered you, he could have made his point politely and in private.

I belong to a club where two of the pros, a father and son, are partial owners. It's not that they are disrespectful or rude, they are just not friendly. I have a twelve year old daughter I take there three or four times a week and they have barely acknowledged her existence. For that reason, and a couple of others, I'll be going elsewhere after eight years of being a member. It's a shame because I love the golf course and they have hired a new professional this year who is really a great guy, but the place is not junior golf friendly because of these two. So we're moving on.

Maybe I'm a little dense, but to me being a golf professional is a job that should require people skills. Yet I have witnessed and/or heard about so many instances where golf professionals are idiots in my 35 years playing this game that it is astounding.

No offense to the good guy professionals out there. There's a lot of you doing a great job, I know.

Kevin

[Styparty]

I've never understood the "trail fee" to begin with - you buy your own cart, but you have to pay a fee anyway? They don't charge a push/pull cart fee when you bring your own, do they?

Putting that aside . . . it was always my understanding that the "trail fee" covered the cart and not just the owner. What if the cart driver and his wife were playing together? Would one of them have to pay a cart fee?

Anyway, I think you handled it fine. Aside from the pro's general douchebaggery, all bets are off when someone sticks a finger in your face. I'd scour the rules for info on trail fees and then write a letter to the course manager/management.

[Nutpoode]

Am I right to assume this was a private, personal cart? The trail fee is applied only to the cart? If so, and the trail fee was already paid for that cart, sounds like the other gentlemen was looking for some more unwarranted revenue for his golf course. "Cooler heads". "Don't cut off your nose off to spite your face"....etc...etc..

Here's a good one for you. I have an email flier from my home course saying I can get a cart, some range balls, and 18 holes of golf for $15 between the hours of of 1pm, and 3pm. I don't want a cart, or the range balls, so I asked what it would cost to just walk, between these hours with my flier in hand. $22.50 I'm told. So I asked if I could just pay the $15, and not take the cart, or use the range balls, since he would have the flier, the user has to turn in to get the discounted $15 fee. "Nope" he said informing me of the disclaimer in fine print. I paid the $22.50.

[Zebrabitch]

Thanks for the replies so far guys, keep em coming! This course is semi-private and there are a lot of members and there are more than a few with similar issues with this guy. He's been here since the beginning and I really think it's time for some new blood. He's just a d bag and most of the time he's bearable for me, but yeah all bets are off when he pointed his finger in my face, it wasn't like right in my face, but from his side of the counter to my side it was sure enough to just straight up piss me off.

I will pursue this in a letter to management/owners at minimum. I'm not going to be some big time righteous being who is going to set out to get this guy fired, but I am going to be sure that my point is made. I do plan on completely researching their trail fee policy as well.

Again, thanks for the replies, it helps because I know you guys will give it to me straight.

[Styparty]

Here's a good one for you. I have an email flier from my home course saying I can get a cart, some range balls, and 18 holes of golf for $15 between the hours of of 1pm, and 3pm. I don't want a cart, or the range balls, so I asked what it would cost to just walk, between these hours with my flier in hand. $22.50 I'm told. So I asked if I could just pay the $15, and not take the cart, or use the range balls, since he would have the flier, the user has to turn in to get the discounted $15 fee. "Nope" he said informing me of the disclaimer in fine print. I paid the $22.50.

I might have been tempted to "accidentally" spill all the range balls in the pro shop and then "forget" where I parked the cart (in the woods) on the front nine.

[trilochana.nejman]

The head pro told you that you'd be liable for a trail fee.

You wrote that your response was: "So I said yeah I'll get you but now everyone in my group was already on the way to our hole for the shotgun start so I had to go" In a court you would be asked to clarify that statement but I'm going to assume that you meant that you would take care of the fee later because you were running late for your tee time.

The fact that you played your round demonstrates that the head pro apparently agreed with that.

Upon your return, the head pro asks you to pay the trail fee.

But now, instead of paying him (as you implied you would prior to your round) you take issue with the fee. It seems to me that you basically told this guy that you would take care of the trail fee after your round (you even say that the fee itself was no big deal) but when you're done, you basically refuse to pay it.

So an argument ensues during which he wagged his finger in your face and "disrespected" you, but since you say (before any finger pointing) that you had to cool down, I can only assume that your actions and/or words may have contributed to his "disrespecting" gesture.
In all of what you've written up to now, you mention "pointed fingers" or "disrespect" at least eight times and in fact, you mention it no less than five times in the email you wrote to the pro. It seems to me as if you're more enraged over feeling somewhat emasculated by his finger pointing - especially in front of a room full of people - than you are over being charged the fee and I think that is what's really bothering you.

While it may very well be true that others ride for free, the fact that you formally or informally agreed to pay the fee or at least acknowledged that you were aware of it prior to beginning your round, led the pro to believe that you would settle up later so he had every reason to expect to be paid upon your return to the pro shop.
When you returned and questioned the fee, you implied that it was unfair and that you'd have to think about it so the pro obviously interpreted that to mean that you either weren't going to pay it or he was going to have a hard time collecting it and he reacted to that. In all fairness, I can't say that he's wrong.

The way this was handled by the both of you could obviously have been better. But the bottom line is that from what you've said and the way you've explained it, I have a hard time seeing your point. He told you about the fee before you teed off and you basically agreed and would take care of it when you were finished. You didn't, so got mad.
It's possible that the head pro is probably no Dale Carnegie himself, but I think you owe him a trail fee.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but you asked for an honest answer and that's mine.


-JP

[agolutuaddiff]

I would have copied in the club president/owner/manager in your email though.

Agreed, you got to CC these things to his higher ups.

I would of done the same thing P4B although I might of bit his finger off. I dont have a problem with him trying to collect his fee but more the manor in which he did it. I would try and get as many members of your club and go to another course.

[anconueys]

Sounds to me like a good old fashioned ass whoopin is in order, either physically (which he's probably never had) or professionally from the person that he has to report to.

The fee is not what's in question to me so much as his behavior, you just don't treat folks like that.

As for the 'trail fee', if the registration on that cart is current at the club, then the fee is paid, no matter who drives. They're only liable for the green fee, at least that's the case everywhere around here that I know of.

[Zebrabitch]

The head pro told you that you'd be liable for a trail fee.

You wrote that your response was: "So I said yeah I'll get you but now everyone in my group was already on the way to our hole for the shotgun start so I had to go" In a court you would be asked to clarify that statement but I'm going to assume that you meant that you would take care of the fee later because you were running late for your tee time.

The fact that you played your round demonstrates that the head pro apparently agreed with that.

Upon your return, the head pro asks you to pay the trail fee.

But now, instead of paying him (as you implied you would prior to your round) you take issue with the fee. It seems to me that you basically told this guy that you would take care of the trail fee after your round (you even say that the fee itself was no big deal) but when you're done, you basically refuse to pay it.

So an argument ensues during which he wagged his finger in your face and "disrespected" you, but since you say (before any finger pointing) that you had to cool down, I can only assume that your actions and/or words may have contributed to his "disrespecting" gesture.
In all of what you've written up to now, you mention "pointed fingers" or "disrespect" at least eight times and in fact, you mention it no less than five times in the email you wrote to the pro. It seems to me as if you're more enraged over feeling somewhat emasculated by his finger pointing - especially in front of a room full of people - than you are over being charged the fee and I think that is what's really bothering you.

While it may very well be true that others ride for free, the fact that you formally or informally agreed to pay the fee or at least acknowledged that you were aware of it prior to beginning your round, led the pro to believe that you would settle up later so he had every reason to expect to be paid upon your return to the pro shop.
When you returned and questioned the fee, you implied that it was unfair and that you'd have to think about it so the pro obviously interpreted that to mean that you either weren't going to pay it or he was going to have a hard time collecting it and he reacted to that. In all fairness, I can't say that he's wrong.

The way this was handled by the both of you could obviously have been better. But the bottom line is that from what you've said and the way you've explained it, I have a hard time seeing your point. He told you about the fee before you teed off and you basically agreed and would take care of it when you were finished. You didn't, so got mad.
It's possible that the head pro is probably no Dale Carnegie himself, but I think you owe him a trail fee.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but you asked for an honest answer and that's mine.


-JP

This is the reason I asked for honest opinions JP. One thing though, upon returning to the shop and he asked about setting up the fee I told him I wasn't completely sure about the fee but that I'd come back in and talk to him about it a little later, then he started in so I again just said that I'd rather come back and do it later this is when I said I'd rather come in and settle up when I have had a chance to think it over and cool down. I was never riled up until after he pointed his finger at me, then as he takes my drink tickets from me my initial reaction was that I would not be back and I still stand by that.

So yes, my hang up is more about the way he handled it and how he basically refused to just hold off and settle up when there wasn't people present. He could sense my irritation with him and rather than waiting until after I ate and talk about this, and he just pushed on with other members in line waiting on him.

[artofeyyy]

The cart is already paid for. The fee is already paid for. You should not have to pay the fee again just because you are not the "owner".

At this point it is the principle of the matter. You have been a member of good standing for a long time, and this guy is going to hassle you over a trail fee? Please.

[Zebrabitch]

The cart is already paid for. The fee is already paid for. You should not have to pay the fee again just because you are not the "owner".

At this point it is the principle of the matter. You have been a member of good standing for a long time, and this guy is going to hassle you over a trail fee? Please.

Exactly my point Defcon!!!! Exactly my point.

[Borzopayn]

You agreed to pay, so if you take it up with the higher ups, you should go pay the fee since you told the "pro" that you would, this will show you as being responsible for your actions (following through on the agreement to pay) and hopefully the owners will hold the "pro" responsible for his. The money is not the issue at all here because if you can afford membership, the matter of a trail fee is pocket change. It would be like me chopping off my leg because an ant bit my toe.

That pro is costing the golf course (a company who is in the check cashing business) money by driving hard earned customers away. The owners would want to know about this because this guy is probably costing them more than one would think. It is understandable if a customer is haughty, but inexcusable for an employee to be so.

[trilochana.nejman]

This is the reason I asked for honest opinions JP. One thing though, upon returning to the shop and he asked about setting up the fee I told him I wasn't completely sure about the fee but that I'd come back in and talk to him about it a little later, then he started in so I again just said that I'd rather come back and do it later this is when I said I'd rather come in and settle up when I have had a chance to think it over and cool down. I was never riled up until after he pointed his finger at me, then as he takes my drink tickets from me my initial reaction was that I would not be back and I still stand by that.

So yes, my hang up is more about the way he handled it and how he basically refused to just hold off and settle up when there wasn't people present. He could sense my irritation with him and rather than waiting until after I ate and talk about this, and he just pushed on with other members in line waiting on him.

Look, we've all been in a situation like this at some time or another and I totally get where you're coming from, so please don't think that I'm lecturing you. I'm just trying to see this in the way a judge might see it.

Speaking for myself, I know that when things like this occur, it's natural for the "macho" to kick in - especially when there are witnesses. When everyone starts getting "chesty" about making their point, the point itself often becomes secondary to posturing and styilin' and in the end, it comes down to a battle of ego's more than a battle of right and wrong.

Personally, I think that things like "Trail Fees" are ridiculous, but it's a revenue stream and a head pro is as much a businessman as he is a golf instructor (more so, actually) and his bottom line is far more important to both he and the club than your comfort or someone else's altruism. So when he sensed a loss of revenue, he went into "protect" mode, just as you went into "principle" mode.

But the argument still boils down to the fact that you (in one way or another) said that you'd pay the fee and when you questioned it later, he sensed that he was being played and everything else kicked in.

I would just pay the silly thing and make sure that if there is a "next time", that all of the details are hammered out before you drive off. Maybe it is indeed time for "new blood" in regard to this pro, but this particular situation is not the stage for that argument. You have an opportunity to be the better man here, so take it, chalk it up to experience and don't lose any sleep over it

(This is yet another reason why walking is better than riding)


-JP

[Zebrabitch]

Look, we've all been in a situation like this at some time or another and I totally get where you're coming from, so please don't think that I'm lecturing you. I'm just trying to see this in the way a judge might see it.

Speaking for myself, I know that when things like this occur, it's natural for the "macho" to kick in - especially when there are witnesses. When everyone starts getting "chesty" about making their point, the point itself often becomes secondary to posturing and styilin' and in the end, it comes down to a battle of ego's more than a battle of right and wrong.

Personally, I think that things like "Trail Fees" are ridiculous, but it's a revenue stream and a head pro is as much a businessman as he is a golf instructor (more so, actually) and his bottom line is far more important to both he and the club than your comfort or someone else's altruism. So when he sensed a loss of revenue, he went into "protect" mode, just as you went into "principle" mode.

But the argument still boils down to the fact that you (in one way or another) said that you'd pay the fee and when you questioned it later, he sensed that he was being played and everything else kicked in.

I would just pay the silly thing and make sure that if there is a "next time", that all of the details are hammered out before you drive off. Maybe it is indeed time for "new blood" in regard to this pro, but this particular situation is not the stage for that argument. You have an opportunity to be the better man here, so take it, chalk it up to experience and don't lose any sleep over it

(This is yet another reason why walking is better than riding)


-JP

Amen to that and to everything you said there! Thank you for your feedback. I'm going to pay the trail fee even though he took my drink tickets back that I had rightfully paid for when I joined that league. I will pay and I will also tell the owners that as long as he is the head pro I will not be a member there.

[Zebrabitch]

One other note, I just scoured their website and in the section of fees and policies there is absolutely nothing talking about trail fees. There is a spot in the membership section and the cart membership section, here is the quote:

Cart Membership
Membership Type 2009 Rates
Full cart (two riders)
$750 w/tax
½ Cart
$475 w/tax
Bring your own cart (Homeowners only)
$375 w/tax So where in the world would you see that it even requires me to pay a trail fee? The cart has already paid it. I'm not a homeowner there so I'm not even eligible for a trail fee.

[Borzopayn]

Did you sign any sort of contract when you joined?

[Zebrabitch]

Nothing. Gave them my name, address, email address, phone number but that's it.