[trilochana.nejman]

I think you are wrong on both of these thoughts, the pro's are better in every way shape & form. And they hit their irons further than most of us could ever hope for.

I'm not so sure about that.

This past June, I went to a practice round at the U.S.Open and this was the very first time I had ever had the opportunity to see pros "up close". Many people have told me over the years that if I ever had a chance to see the pros in person, that I'd be blown away by their distances.

But that wasn't what impressed me.

What impressed me were three things:

1. Their accuracy
2. Their consistency
3. Their tempo.

Of those three things, it was the tempo that actually blew me away.

Almost to the man, every single player I saw had virtually the same tempo. No one was coming out of their shoes to hit a shot and yet they all struck the ball very cleanly and very forcefully.

As far as distance was concerned, with the exception of a few of the really big hitters, I wasn't that overly impressed with distance. This was especially relevant to me because of where the Open was being played. I have played hundreds of rounds of golf on Bethpage Black from every tee they have and I know every inch of that course and every yardage.
Besides, "Tour" iron distance is more about de-lofting and "pre-bottom" contact than anything superhuman. Put that skill together with the tempo's I saw and the distance is academic.

Please don't think I'm patting myself on the back or comparing my game to that of the PGA players, but the places they were putting their tee shots were the same places that I generally put mine and I remember thinking to myself that I was not far off in terms of that category.

For example, I watched some pro tee off on 6 which is a shortish par 4 that usually only requires an iron or small fairway wood off the tee to set up the approach. The pro hit a 4 or 5-iron and placed his shot about 20 yards short of the hill which separates the front and back portions of this hole and it's the ideal spot to hit to. The distance to that point is only around 220 or so, yet there were some male patrons in their 50's who were giggling like school girls at the notion of a 220-yard 4 or 5 iron. I don't see that as a big deal - especially off a tee. Especially from THAT tee. I've hit that tee shot myself many times and with the same clubs.

As I said, the idea that these guys can hit that same shot to the same spot time after time and that they produce that shot with what almost appears to be a lazy swing is what really impresses me - far more than distance. I used to joke with people over the years that the only difference between a good amateur and a Tour pro is about 3,000 balls a week and based on what I saw that day at Bethpage, I'm not so sure that's actually a joke.

To be sure, there's a lot more to competing on a PGA level than consistently hitting a ball to a certain spot, but that has more to do with a person's mental toughness and course management acumen than anything else. I walked away from that day with a new way of looking at swing tempo and swing mechanics, but I wasn't blown away by their distance - I was more encouraged by it than anything else.


-JP

[houkbsdov]

I realize that no one on here will believe me but that is about what I carry mine at right now. Granted my clubs are 1" long and very upright. According to my recent fitting the 3i should be my 210-220 (not all air carry, roll included depending on type of shot) club. I have carried 225, but that was down wind AND hill, from a tee and I swung for the fences and got EXTREMELY fortunate that I actually connected square.

Longish par 3's I actually prefer to fade/cut a 2 iron in with a high trajectory/tee and two hop stop it close or grip down on my 3 wood and do a 3/4 swing low shot that hits the front frog-hair/lip and rolls onto the green somewhere.

I have given up on hybrids, I can NOT get them to be consistent, for some reason. I want to hit it like a wood and it just hooks too much or has a very unusual reverse draw thingy. It's a bananna slice that goes waaaaay out to the left and curls tightly back even/little past my line or aiming point. Looks awFUL! So the knock off Hogan Apex Plus 2i (s400 DG) stays in the bag. Thus I am looking at the MP Fli Hi's right now. Though I have yet to try a hybrid with a steel shaft so that might be the problem maybe?

And to just play devil's advocate to Dyna, some (not all) pro's also have very drastically lowered lofts. Also when I was at the Torrey Pines (? might have been called something else) Invite back in 98 or 99 (can't remember when right now ) a good portion of the field there did not hit insanely more club, I would say alot were 1-1 1/2 club longer and some were actually pretty normal.

Albeit some of these guys might not have been in the top 100 or could have been amy's for all I knew seeing as I was just a baby faced middle schooler!

[bashansasasasa]

+2 for the last two posts.

[Thorwaywhobia]

I'm not so sure about that.

This past June, I went to a practice round at the U.S.Open and this was the very first time I had ever had the opportunity to see pros "up close". Many people have told me over the years that if I ever had a chance to see the pros in person, that I'd be blown away by their distances.

But that wasn't what impressed me.

What impressed me were three things:

1. Their accuracy
2. Their consistency
3. Their tempo.

Of those three things, it was the tempo that actually blew me away.

Almost to the man, every single player I saw had virtually the same tempo. No one was coming out of their shoes to hit a shot and yet they all struck the ball very cleanly and very forcefully.

As far as distance was concerned, with the exception of a few of the really big hitters, I wasn't that overly impressed with distance. This was especially relevant to me because of where the Open was being played. I have played hundreds of rounds of golf on Bethpage Black from every tee they have and I know every inch of that course and every yardage.
Besides, "Tour" iron distance is more about de-lofting and "pre-bottom" contact than anything superhuman. Put that skill together with the tempo's I saw and the distance is academic.

Please don't think I'm patting myself on the back or comparing my game to that of the PGA players, but the places they were putting their tee shots were the same places that I generally put mine and I remember thinking to myself that I was not far off in terms of that category.

For example, I watched some pro tee off on 6 which is a shortish par 4 that usually only requires an iron or small fairway wood off the tee to set up the approach. The pro hit a 4 or 5-iron and placed his shot about 20 yards short of the hill which separates the front and back portions of this hole and it's the ideal spot to hit to. The distance to that point is only around 220 or so, yet there were some male patrons in their 50's who were giggling like school girls at the notion of a 220-yard 4 or 5 iron. I don't see that as a big deal - especially off a tee. Especially from THAT tee. I've hit that tee shot myself many times and with the same clubs.

As I said, the idea that these guys can hit that same shot to the same spot time after time and that they produce that shot with what almost appears to be a lazy swing is what really impresses me - far more than distance. I used to joke with people over the years that the only difference between a good amateur and a Tour pro is about 3,000 balls a week and based on what I saw that day at Bethpage, I'm not so sure that's actually a joke.

To be sure, there's a lot more to competing on a PGA level than consistently hitting a ball to a certain spot, but that has more to do with a person's mental toughness and course management acumen than anything else. I walked away from that day with a new way of looking at swing tempo and swing mechanics, but I wasn't blown away by their distance - I was more encouraged by it than anything else.


-JP

First off the difference between a good amateur and a Tour pro is more than 3000 balls a week. The fact that someone could actually consider that anything other than a joke says a lot. The mental makeup, integrity, will, heart, and natural ability, make up a lot more than people hting.

You talk about the pro distances as they hit their irons off a tee on the short par 4. What about using driver off the tee?

you said "but the places they were putting their tee shots were the same places that I generally put mine and I remember thinking to myself that I was not far off in terms of that category."

The driving averages at Bethpage US Opens are simply ridiculous and pro after pro were teeing off and most were going in the 290 + range. With over 40 players putting them over 300 routinely. I just want to make sure you were seeing the same thing and you were speaking of the same distances that occurred..

[bashansasasasa]

He said...

distance did not impress as much as accuracy. Accuracy, ie 290 yards to the spot they wanted.

Same with the 3i @210 yards. It was on the green. That was the most impressive part.

What the A%^$# is the deal with picking apart every one of JP's posts anyway?


Popcorn is not that great of a food.

[!!Aaroncheg]

Same with the 3i @210 yards. It was on the green. That was the most impressive part.

For a pro 210 yds with a 3iron is a chip shot. They can sure as hell blast it a lot further & still be accurate.

I don't understand how a single person on this forum could attempt in any way shape or form to begin to compare their game with a pro's.

[Thorwaywhobia]

He said...

distance did not impress as much as accuracy. Accuracy, ie 290 yards to the spot they wanted.

Same with the 3i @210 yards. It was on the green. That was the most impressive part.

What the A%^$# is the deal with picking apart every one of JP's posts anyway?


Popcorn is not that great of a food.

Nobody is picking apart the same peoples posts. However someone saying that they hit it as far as the tour pros is one thing and that the difference between good amateurs and tour pros is simply 3000 balls a week is not really fair to the players that dedicate their lives to making themselves better and good enough to compete each week.

However forums are about debate and conversation and when someone compares their own distance to that of the Tour players, you have to expect that a few people are going to atleast say "huh"? Regardless of the validity of it.

[Thorwaywhobia]

For a pro 210 yds with a 3iron is a chip shot. They can sure as hell blast it a lot further & still be accurate.

I don't understand how a single person on this forum could attempt in any way shape or form to begin to compare their game with a pro's.

Well said.

[!!Aaroncheg]

BTW, if the only difference were 3,000 balls a week, don't you think a fair number of us would be hitting that many & in turn making millions of $$ on tour?

[!!Aaroncheg]

BTW, the pro's are routinely playing courses that are in the 7,400 yd & up range. I know if I were to play that length of course I would be lucky to keep the score below 125. We & by we I mean a lot of us here play the white tee's or possibly the blues. Not many are playing the black tee's although i'm sure now there will be numerous postings about how so & so plays from the blacks all the time & they are within 10 strokes of Mickelsons score all the time.

The pro's have more natural skill & ability in one hand when it comes to golf then 10 of us hackers combined.

[bashansasasasa]

I hear that "joke" a lot... though its usually 10,000 balls mentioned.

hmm, I hit 556 balls since last Saturday.

[Yb4bulVR]

Can't Tiger hit a 9I close to 200 yards? I thought I saw him do that in some tournament.

He is a freak of nature, a Paul Bunyan of golf.

For a pro 210 yds with a 3iron is a chip shot. They can sure as hell blast it a lot further & still be accurate.

I don't understand how a single person on this forum could attempt in any way shape or form to begin to compare their game with a pro's.

Absolutely. Tiger can hit a 3I well over 240 without even breaking a sweat. He hits a 6I 210. Does that mean that we should be trying that? Not on your life. Instead, just be sure that you know how far you DO hit each club, and if your distances should happen to increase with time and general improvement, that's good. If not, it ain't the end of the world.

Trying to play like the pros do will just lead most of us to frustration and insanity.

[Audi_z]

210+/- for me is my 5W. Some what accurate, but still only a 5W. "Wheaties" and "spinach" will not help......................

[trilochana.nejman]

(Here we go again...)

JB, why do insist on taking everything I write completely out of context and then criticize me for what you think I wrote?

Please listen to me, OK?

You wrote:

First off the difference between a good amateur and a Tour pro is more than 3000 balls a week. The fact that someone could actually consider that anything other than a joke says a lot. The mental makeup, integrity, will, heart, and natural ability, make up a lot more than people hting.

I wrote:

Please don't think I'm patting myself on the back or comparing my game to that of the PGA players, but the places they were putting their tee shots were the same places that I generally put mine and I remember thinking to myself that I was not far off in terms of that category.

and...

"To be sure, there's a lot more to competing on a PGA level than consistently hitting a ball to a certain spot..."

As I mentioned, I know every inch of the Black Course and I know every yardage out there - probably better than the pro's do. And as I watched them hit tee shots on a variety of holes, I kept telling myself that we're not that far off in terms of distance.

You also wrote:

I just want to make sure you were seeing the same thing and you were speaking of the same distances that occurred..

OK, here's an example:

As I said, I was watching tee shots on 6. The 6th tee happens to overlook the 5th hole and I had a bird's eye view of the entire hole all the way back to the tees. Now, the 5th hole is my favorite par 4 hole of all time so I am especially tuned in to its characteristics. The pro's were using the middle tee that day (due to the wet conditions) and the middle tee is the regular "Blue Tee" for the rest of us. The pro's were hitting their tee shots just past the far end of the waste bunker which runs diagonally from lower left to middle right in the fairway and is the hole's "signature".

To place a tee shot just beyond this waste bunker requires a carry distance of around 280 or so and the distance to the green from that point is roughly 185 yards. One player after another was putting their tee shot in just that spot and from those tees, that's where I place my tee shot as well.

In fact, I remember while watching the tournament on TV later that week, when they showed the tee shots on that hole, I'd turn to my wife and say, "He's got about 185 to the pin" after which the announcer would say "He has 186" (I was off by a yard). I know those distances because they're the ones I deal with when I play there.

Same thing with the 4th hole - the big par 5. They were teeing off from the upper tee box (the "U.S.Open Tee Box") and they were leaving their drives at about the crest of the hill in the fairway about even eith the top of the bunkers on the left side --- in the same area where I leave MY tee shots.

So what do you want me to tell you, JB? That I was hallucinating?

Another thing you mentioned was that "mental makeup, integrity, will, heart, and natural ability" are also part of what makes a pro a pro. Are you implying that us "mere mortals" do not possess such characteristics?

(Although just what integrity has to do with skill is a little puzzling)

Are you suggesting that amateurs don't have heart? Or will? Or natural ability?

You DO realize that all pro's were amateurs at some point, don't you?

I'm sorry JB, you can certainly believe what you wish to believe, but since you have no idea of what my skills are and no idea of what kind of "heart" I have or "will" or "natural ability", you are in no position to derogate my golf game.

I do not put celebrities on a pedestal nor do I see them as superhuman. When I see a true pro - in any discipline - all I see is a person who has dedicated their life (or at least a good portion of it) to raising their skill level to a point where they are at the top of their game. I certainly respect anyone for being able to do that, but I don't defer to them, worship them or feel that I cannot compare myself to them.



In my humble opinion, of course.


-JP

[bashansasasasa]

Hmmmmm

Seems that what the Pro's were doing yesterday at BMW.

wish me luck in my new goal.

Also, I will need some references to some bone and tendon doctors.

[Gerribase]

Yeesh...I hit my #4 utility about 210, but the 3H is only good for about 185 or so.

[Yinekol]

Can't Tiger hit a 9I close to 200 yards? I thought I saw him do that in some tournament.

[medifastwoman]

210 yards seems pretty short for the male Pros, even if it is all carry. I carry mine 185, and I am typically 50 yards shorter than the pros, even shorter with the short irons and wedges, which I don't hit very 'fully'.

Good luck timbertoes! How much extra do you need?

[bashansasasasa]

Can't Tiger hit a 9I close to 200 yards? I thought I saw him do that in some tournament.

He is a freak of nature, a Paul Bunyan of golf.

[bashansasasasa]

210 yards seems pretty short for the male Pros, even if it is all carry. I carry mine 185, and I am typically 50 yards shorter than the pros, even shorter with the short irons and wedges, which I don't hit very 'fully'.

Good luck timbertoes! How much extra do you need?

about......

100 yards. probably! hehe. I dont know, it was replaced with a 4H.
Have a 3H CFT Hogan also.
Looks like I will be carrying some extra clubs to the range.
I recall last year, a few - few times, the ball bounced around the 180 yds with the 3i. Most of the time, IIRC, it just killed worms and insects.


All I know, is I watched those shots, and thought.... I have a LONG ways to go for the Senior Open...