[8Uxtkz7F]

(Selective extracts only) Dialogues with the Guru R. Krishnaswamy Iyer A European Gentleman came to see him. Page 10 European: Swamiji may I know if you are prepared to take converts to your religion? Personally I find much worth in it? Swamigal : The Hindu System of Philosophy and Religion is bound to attract all thinking minds, but we do not take in converts. (Swamiji to other questions answers that all the world is anyway Hindu) Swamigal : They cannot escape this law, (Sanata Dharma), whether they concede its binding force or not. The eternal truth taht fire burns does not depend on its validity upon our allegience to it. If we accept that truth so much the better for us. If we do not so much the worse for us. In either the law is there immutable,universal and eternal. European: If the entire world is Hindu according to you, how do you justify the restrictive caste system? Swamigal : I only told you that all were Hindus and therefore entitled to seek guidance in the tenets of our religion. I did not say that the guidance will be same for all. .. Our Dharma taking due notice of this undeniable fact resolves itself into two parts 1. Samanya Dharma or Ordinary Law 2. Visesha Dharma or Special Law The former guides all , the former and latter together guide those who come under the caste system. European: If the rules of caste have any spiritual value, why not give the benefit of them to those who are outside of it? Swamigal : If water is beneficial to a thirsty man, does it follow that it will be beneficial to a man who has fever and therefore feels thirsty? European: Your illustration is not fair. There is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a caste will be injurious to others, who do not belong to that caste and any caste at all. Swamigal : On the other hand , you must realize that there is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a particular caste will be beneficial to others.

[tsaaapla]

pviyer,

this appears to be a bunch of gobbledygook, to confuse someone.

'you must realize that there is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a particular caste will be beneficial to others.

should i? why is someone different from me before God?

the man speaks with a forked tongue, not sincere and sounds hypocritical.

[Brareevor]

pviyer, this appears to be a bunch of gobbledygook, to confuse someone. [COLOR=\"#FF0000\"]\'you must realize that there is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a particular caste will be beneficial to others. [/COLOR] should i? why is someone different from me before God? the man speaks with a forked tongue, not sincere and sounds hypocritical.

This is swamigal\'s answer Swamigal : Any system which aims at regulation of conduct must be based on the principle of adhikara or competency. Those who belong to the castes are competent to pursue the Visesha Dharma, the others are competent to pursue only Samanya Dharma. Further the nature of the competency required can be learnt only from the Sastras which prescribe the Dharma

[Vegeinvalge]

Further explanation : How is swamigal hypocritical. What does he gain by barring non hindus from hinduism? He asks the European to be a true christian.

[Grenader]

Pviyer,

Why? Why should a European be a true Christian? Who is this guru to tell anyone to be what someone should be. It is this arrogance that I am pointing out. Or maybe it is ignorance?

Beneath our skin, all humanity is the same. If someone has come to india, curious or interested in its traditions, the right answer, I think, is to welcome them, familiarize them to what is the best of us, and hopefully quench the seeker’s search for Indian truths.

I realize that the guru has a very sticky wicket here trying to explain and justify caste. Even kannadasan, in his ‘arthumulla hindu madham’ stumbled. The ever distinct kaviyarasu, mumbled trying to justify the basic intolerance of casteism, particularly the station it had for the dalits.

Would it not be easier, to confess, that caste was an aberration of our scriptures? There are enough aberrations in the volumes of our texts, including many juicy ones from manu. Why should we accept the baggage of inequality, when we ourselves go to Europe, and scream for our ‘rights’. Can we not show the same rights for our fellow Indians, and when someone questions the disparity, accept it as something wrong.

No sir, I think the European has as much right to come here, study our texts, and adopt it, if it behooves him to fulfullment. Our smarts lie in spreading out all our wares, let him chose what is applicable to him, and adopt it, as would suit him. Not to tell to go back to Europe and be a good Christian.

Atleast I think so

[Knongargoapex]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Why this outburst? I think you got it wrong. My understanding from what I read here about the "guru's" words is this:

When a christian asks him what are his views about conversion to Hinduism, the Guru replies saying that he(the christian)is already a Hindu because every one in this world is essentially a hindu. So it would be enough if he remains a true christian - being a good individual as the christianity mandates. I dont see any arrogant, uppitty guru preaching the christian to go back and mind his business. May be you have been sensitised on gurus in a particular way. Excuse me if I appear nosy too.

Cheers.

[erelvenewmeva]

I think, the Guru wanted to be humble. Hinduism does not have any concept of conversion.

But, it is also Guru's responsibility to share the knowledge or guide the "INTERESTED" followers, irrespective of any barriers. Only forcing/proselytizing to the unwilling is not meaningful or worthwhile, hence is not allowed in the vedic scriptures.

We have many Vedic/Sankrit scholars, translated and authored scripture related works with the westerners. We have many new adherents to our hinduism, accepted by our gurus from ancient times.

Plus, the philosophical understanding behind Consciousness is that we are born with the knowledge/qualities (bound to our birth body), but our birth nature can become expanded with experiences/knowledge obtained during this birth. Anyone should be welcomed to new wisdom/experience/knowledge.

[swoluelvede]

(Selective extracts only) Dialogues with the Guru R. Krishnaswamy Iyer A European Gentleman came to see him. Page 10 European: Swamiji may I know if you are prepared to take converts to your religion? Personally I find much worth in it? Swamigal : The Hindu System of Philosophy and Religion is bound to attract all thinking minds, but we do not take in converts. (Swamiji to other questions answers that all the world is anyway Hindu) Swamigal : They cannot escape this law, (Sanata Dharma), whether they concede its binding force or not. The eternal truth taht fire burns does not depend on its validity upon our allegience to it. If we accept that truth so much the better for us. If we do not so much the worse for us. In either the law is there immutable,universal and eternal. European: If the entire world is Hindu according to you, how do you justify the restrictive caste system? Swamigal : I only told you that all were Hindus and therefore entitled to seek guidance in the tenets of our religion. I did not say that the guidance will be same for all. .. Our Dharma taking due notice of this undeniable fact resolves itself into two parts 1. Samanya Dharma or Ordinary Law 2. Visesha Dharma or Special Law The former guides all , the former and latter together guide those who come under the caste system. European: If the rules of caste have any spiritual value, why not give the benefit of them to those who are outside of it? Swamigal : If water is beneficial to a thirsty man, does it follow that it will be beneficial to a man who has fever and therefore feels thirsty? European: Your illustration is not fair. There is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a caste will be injurious to others, who do not belong to that caste and any caste at all. Swamigal : On the other hand , you must realize that there is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a particular caste will be beneficial to others.

My understanding is

The Essence of Hinduism is the Concept of Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul, besides most of the Hindus are polytheistic and idol worshipers. A very few follow the Idea of One Ishwara.

None of the Abrahamic Religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) believes in Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul, besides they are all monotheistic.

Then, how in the world "all the world is anyway Hindu"?

Hindus make up about 1 billion people, and the rest of the world, including the Atheists are about 5 billion people!

How could the Sanatana Dharma affect people like Yamaka - the Self Proclaimed Atheists, anyway?

Who is this Swamigal?... Another Baba of Sai??LOL

[infinkPoode]

None of the Abrahamic Religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) believes in Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul, besides they are all monotheistic. a b r a h a m = b r a h m a a annagrammed.all the above three religions are originating from lord brahmaa and goddess saraswathy therefore they are sanathana dharma as well,not an alien religion.they too have idols or symbolic icons to state or define their religion.judaism with a cap (formlessness aka nirguna brahman) or a christian with a cross or a mohammedan with a crecsent,beard etc.every hindu child knows the idol is a figurine symbol and the rituals energise the yantra with mantra and tantra.

[italertb]

Ref Post#8
If you see water as liquid, and you knowledge is limited to that, you will not believe that steam and Ice are also water in a different state. You define 1+1=2 and I say you are not correct, you get baffled. Then I tell you we are working in binary numbers you realize your mistake.

Similarly your definition of Hinduism is wrong. You put the limitation on Hinduism and use that limitation as litmus test. Did you ask every Hindu their definition of Hinduism? So before generalizing get your facts right.

Post#5
I am with you K.

[viawbambutt]

The book referred to by Sri P.V.Iyer is a famous book " Dialogues with the Guru" containing the collection of lectures of Sringeri Mahasannidanam Jagadguru Sri Chandrasekhara Bharathi (1892-1954), who adorned the Sringeri Sharada Peedam as the 34th Pontiff from 1912 to 1954. Mahaswami was known for his vast erudition and considred a scholar par excellance and saint of outstanding eminence.

His Bhashya in Sanskrit on Vivekachudamani of Sri Sankara is considered one of the best of its kind and his magnum opus.

Jagadguru was a renowned jeevan mukta who attained videha mukti on September 26, 1954 (Mahalaya Amavasya day)at the Tunga River in Sringeri.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

[ptmQqoxw]

Ref Post#8
If you see water as liquid, and you knowledge is limited to that, you will not believe that steam and Ice are also water in a different state. You define 1+1=2 and I say you are not correct, you get baffled. Then I tell you we are working in binary numbers you realize your mistake.

Similarly your definition of Hinduism is wrong. You put the limitation on Hinduism and use that limitation as litmus test. Did you ask every Hindu their definition of Hinduism? So before generalizing get your facts right.

Post#5
I am with you K.
This swamiji is less than knowledgeable. He seems to illiterate at best. He does not the process of answering. Further he is not aware of his limitations. I am even more surprised at people trying to support this swamiji. There are various shades of swamijis, gurujus, and Godmen. I try to learn as much, but I see the hollowness I walk away.

Prasad1,
Your words are very harsh. H H Sri Chandrasekara bharati was the 34th sankaracharya of sri sringeri sharada peetam. Please take back your words.
Kamesh

[GaxyGroordrep]

Prasad1,
Your words are very harsh. H H Sri Chandrasekara bharati was the 34th sankaracharya of sri sringeri sharada peetam. Please take back your words.
Kamesh

Dear Sri Kameshratnam,

I agree with you that the words used by Sri Prasad were harsh, and he need not have used them. Obviously he does not seem to know who the author of the book or the greatness of Acharya. Reading the biography of Jagadguru Chandrasekhara Bharati will help to understand his personality and greatness.

Again I would request the participants not to comment on the personalities, instead concentrate and discuss on the subject. Using harsh words on Acharyas will hurt the feelings of others who revere them and creat unwanted friction among the members of this forum.
This will not also be in consonance with the Forum rules. Perhaps timely intervention of Sri Praveen and Sri K.R.S. will help course correction.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

[Roorseprate]

Dear Yamaka,

Your post #8. The numbers I have added for reference.

My understanding is
(1)The Essence of Hinduism is the Concept of Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul, (2)besides most of the Hindus are polytheistic and idol worshipers. A very few follow the Idea of One Ishwara.
None of the Abrahamic Religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) believes in Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul, besides they are all monotheistic.
Then, how in the world "all the world is anyway Hindu"?
(3)Hindus make up about 1 billion people, and the rest of the world, including the Atheists are about 5 billion people!
How could the Sanatana Dharma affect people like Yamaka - the Self Proclaimed Atheists, anyway?
(1) How did you come to this essence? What did you refine/distill to arrive at this essence?

(2) Are you sure that the Hindus are polytheistic? We are using the words of an alien language which were invented to represent alien concepts. Can you elaborate your statement? If you try to do that you would be automatically speaking about the later part of your sentence about Idea of one Eswara also.

(3) Sanatana Dharma affects people who are atheists too. That is why you are here posting. LOL.

[chootsonege]

It is my mistake only. Only after I posted the excerpt I realized I had forgotten to introduce the name of the Acharyal- Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati of Sringeri Mutt.


Our revered acharyal says that everyone is subjected to the law of Sanatana Dharma. But there are differences. A child for example is not affected by sins but as a grown up has to experience the result of sins. This is one example of Visesha Dharma. How does this happen? The sins attaches itself to the person according to his competency. I understand from his discussion that we may take this law of visesha dharma not only true for castes but also stages of life. A sanyasi dharma cannot be a a Grihastha dharma. We are all still affected by the same samanya dharma.


Our Acharyal says that Birth is not accident.How is it possible that birth can be accident in the eyes of the great lord? He says that along with birth everyone gets the path to god realization as needed. It is just not possible that there is a person without opportunity for realization. However the visesha dharma is there. We must follow it sincerely and it will help us. God will decide the worthiness of your actions. I think even if I do not believe in rebirth, I can still get moksha if I deserve it.

[eEwbYjOH]

European : If then the Hindu shastras are to be taken as the guide for all humanity and if all the persons born are, in your view, borin in your religion, how do you account for the prevalence of other faiths?

Swamigal : It is their fault that they do not recognize that they are but aspects of the Sanathana Dharma. The highest teachings if any other religion do find a place in our religion and are but a phase of the ordinary law laid down there

European: Dont you think, swamiji,that your claim will sound somewhat over-high and that the others may not be disposed to concede it?

Swamigal : The disposition of others to the claim of hinduism is besides the point, for the intrinsic worth of something is always there whether one concedes it or not. As for the claim being high, I desire to point it out to you, that I cannot put it any lower.

European: How is that?

Swamigal: ( Swamigal takes the example of christianity to show that as per Christianity those born before christ are denied salvation) Further dont you think it is unfair on the part of God that He should wake up on a particular day and prescribe for all mankind a necessary condition for salvation? Did he forget that all people who had the misfortune to be born before Jesus had souls to save? If he did not forget did he take care to prescribe for them, the means necessary to enable them to attain salvation? If he did so prescribe his prescription could not possibly have included a belief in the Jesus to be born. Therefore the only hypothesis ,which a reasonable man accept , is that God, when he created the first man,himself simultaneously promulgated also the means for his salvation, for even the first man was in need for salvation.We accordingly say of our Vedas that they were coeval with the first man and that they were revelations of God himself. Any religion which traces its origin from a later time,any time after creation, and from any teacher other than God, is bound to be imperfect and short lived.

[chuecfafresslds]

On the other hand , you must realize that there is nothing to show that a special rule of conduct prescribed for a particular caste will be beneficial to others.

I think the above remark attributed to the Swamiji has relevance to the caste within hinduism. I think the Swamiji, true to orthodox brahmin tenets, is saying here that all the rites and rituals and the many other paraphernalia practised by the brahmins will not be beneficial to other caste people.

This betrays the mindset of that swamiji who might have been steeped in the superstitious beliefs and conventions of a bygone era. He tries to tell the European visitor that the caste rules are beneficial and have to be followed. I will say that we leave the swami in peace with his notions and we get along, according to our times.

Having said that, I fail to understand why Prasad's remarks that "This swamiji is less than knowledgeable. He seems to illiterate at best. He does not the process of answering. Further he is not aware of his limitations. I am even more surprised at people trying to support this swamiji. There are various shades of swamijis, gurujus, and Godmen. I try to learn as much, but I see the hollowness I walk away.", should be taken as offensive. Well the Swamiji might have been a great personage but even such greatness is after all evanescent and people may question their wisdom at a future date. Why should we make a பூச்சாண்டி (scare-crow?) out of him and threaten the member who so remarked?

[gtyruzzel]

Sangom Sir Says He tries to tell the European visitor that the caste rules are beneficial and have to be followed. I will say that we leave the swami in peace with his notions and we get along, according to our times. I have one thing to say. No ritual or no worship can work without grace of God. Therefore all Pujas , everything is superstitious if God\'s intervention is not there. How do you find out God\'s desire except through revelations. This is what Pujya Swamigal is saying. God can very well decide the competency of people and allocate karmas to them, according to their competency and earlier punya and refinement.

[xanaxnewtrader]

....Swamigal: ( Swamigal takes the example of christianity to show that as per Christianity those born before christ are denied salvation)

With due respects to the acharya, comments like Sanatana Dharma encompasses the highest teachings of all other religions is self-serving and problematic. I would like to make one more observation, there seems to be some misunderstanding about salvation of those who came before Christ, again no disrespect intended.

First, there is no single doctrine of salvation accepted by all Christians. The question of salvation for those who came before Jesus, those who have never heard of Jesus, and babies that die before an opportunity for the Christian sacraments, is dealt with by all the Christian denominations each in their own way. These explanations are given by many a religious luminary among Christians, by the likes of Saint Thomas Aquinas. If I may add, these explanations are no less lame than claims of universality.

Cheers!

[avavavava]

First, there is no single doctrine of salvation accepted by all Christians. The question of salvation for those who came before Jesus, those who have never heard of Jesus, and babies that die before an opportunity for the Christian sacraments, is dealt with by all the Christian denominations each in their own way. Since these explanations are given many a religious luminary among Christians, by the likes of Saint Thomas Aquinas, .....
Cheers!

Dear Sri "Nara",

As a senior and seasoned participant in many threads you are one who never cross the boundaries of decency while posting your views. It is my experience that this Forum freely allows all shades of opinion on a subject and there is no need to be apologetic on that score. But, you will certainly agree that it is not ethical in a discussion to use harsh words on personalities who were held in high esteem by many others.

With Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.