[VQdeochratis]

Hello Sridhar

The following ling might give you some ideas:
http://www.vedah.net/manasanskriti/Brahmins.html

This is indeed a immense topic and many scholarly people commented on this
Here some of my thoughts based on that:

1. For a Bramana, Vedam and Gothram comes as first grouping:

According to many scholars, the Vedam and Gothram been formulated by Sri Vedavyasa (Krishnadvaipayana) to protect the Vedas. As it was said "Grantha Kotipi" meaning Vedas were innumerable. But owing to the diminishing utility of memory by human beings due to the age of Kali, Vedas were grouped into 4 (Rig, Yajur, Sama and Athrvana) and handed over to group of people with an instruction that at least keep this compiled form of Veda intact and hand over to generations next. In that view some group were given instructions to keep Rig and others Yajur etc., and to share the knowledge of the Veda to the human community as a whole. Following to that, now we call ourselves belonging to any one Vedam. A point to be noted here is Each Veda has its own rituals/formulas/practices as described in that Veda and Vedaanga.

'Gothra' is an identity carried by male lineage in India from time immemorial. Most people have gothra chain names traceable to Rig Vedic Rishis like 'Gowthama', 'Vasishta' 'Viswamithra' and to first sons of Vaivaswatha Manu like Angirasa & Bhrigu. Purana such as Vishnu Purana refer to individual identity through 'Gothra'. Listings of more than 250 Gothra chains have been explicitly listed. I have heard of instances of Muslims converted from Hinduism still keeping track of their 'Gothra'. For example we know that Buddha, named Siddhartha was of 'Gowthama Gothra'. It means that his Y-chromosomes were probably from Rig-Vedic Rishi 'Gowthama Rahoogana'.


2. Divisions such as (Vadama, Vaathima or Brihadhcharanam etc.,)
This is just to identify a group based on their settlements. It is believed that Brahmins do and did existed globally and they migrated from one place to another place on invitation from Kings of other region. Thus the relocated or migrated group of Vedic People been given a special status, place to stay to conduct the Vedic rituals etc., such group viz., Vadama (those who moved from North), Brihacharanam [Brihath – this world or the country, Charanam – circumambulate] Those who moved from distant places. Like this the divisions.

[Hitfaromarf]

A good posting from Sri R.Venkatraman. May I prod Sri RV to post his thoughts on why cross-Gothra marriage is an ancient wisdom that we should preserve and pass on to posterity.

[Old-old-Ivy]

Dear Anbu

Gothram - Pravaram

Marriages within Pravaras, and according to some scriptures, that within gotras, were not permitted. The reasoning is that marrying within one's gotra would be akin to marrying one's sister and would be akin to incest

Gothram: There are many definitions for this but i am sharing very commonly known definition. Gotra A term applied to a clan, a group of families, or a lineage - exogamous and patrilineal - whose members trace their descent to a common ancestor, usually a Sage/Rishi of ancient times.

Consider the term exogamy: The custom of marrying outside the tribe, family, clan, or other social unit. This will help in the fusion of two gametes that are not closely related. Hence will preserve the Y-Chromosome which is carried from generations to generations.

Genetically:
Geneticists used a scientific fact, that most of the male Y-chromosome is passed intact from father to son. Females do not carry the Y-chromosome. Genetically there was transference of some unique characteristics only from father to son (in the form of Y-chromosomes)

My thought!

How did the people of 3000-4000 years ago realize that genetically there was transference of some unique characteristics only from father to son (in the form of Y-chromosomes)? In recent past when it was fashionable to condemn all Indian traditional systems as of no value, non-believers have referred to 'Gothra' as archaic, unscientific, irrelevant and male chauvinistic! -
I think it has many very deep scientific reasons. Even I believe that is the reason why in periodic intervals there is a 'Mahaan' a ‘Rishi’ like personalities are born (Sri Adhi Shankara, RamanaMaharishi, Swami Dhayanandha Saraswathi, Sri Arobhindo and many more)...which is possible because the ancient Rishi's genes were passed to generations to generation and genetic mutations would bring back such ability and personality to reincarnate the Rishi of our origin again!!! (This is purely my perception based on what I have so heard and red)

More research on Genetics will bring out more findings on this.

I have a chart of a Pravaram for 'Sri Vathsa Gothram' it pictures the clan and the descendant Rishis in an inverted tree structure, let me find it and if possible share it with you all.

[Pedsshuth]

Thanks Sri Venkatraman for well researched reply. Many parents as I came across have been ingorant of these things. Hope they read these and pass on to the youngsters.

Narayanasmrithi
Anbu

[dodsCooggipsehome]

Good posting, Mr. Venkatraman. I am surprised many of our members did not know the reason that we don't marry within Gothras is to prevent in-breeding. Haven't they heard the term 'gotra daayathi'? (I believe that is how it is said! - been a long time!)

Now how about Iyengars vs. Iyers? They share almost everything including Gotras, except the 'Advaita' vs. Vashitadvaita' philosophy.
When and how did this come about?
Thanks

[StethyEntinic]

Dear All

As a Vedic person I would say the authority is only the ‘Prasthana Thrayam’ (somebody will say Prasthana Thrayam as Vedas, Upanishads and Srimad Bhagavath Geetha, also there is one more saying, as Vedas are mainly divided as 3 parts, Samhitha, Brahmana and Aranyaka, hence Prasthana Thrayam). Anyhow, let us see what is there in our Shastra (Shastra means teaching, so If I refer to Shastra which means what is been taught by the Prasthana Thrayam). I am trying to brief my thoughts for the discussion “how about Iyengars vs. Iyers – by SILVERFOX [cool name!!!….]” with the context of marriage, for that I request you to bear with some additional briefs I have to make for a flow!

Before Jagathguru Sri Adi Shankara, there were huge confusion and misconception in ‘Bharatha desha’ (India) on worshipping, it is said that the worshiping was in one extent as holy as and in other extreme as horrible as and thousands and thousands of branches. Hence, Sri Adi Shankara taken the Shastra as means and formulated 6 ways to reach or realize the reality. Sri Adi Shankara thence called ‘Shanmdha sThapaka’ viz (Saivam, Vainavam, Shaktam, Ganapathyam, Gaumaram and Sowram). We know this very well. This is only the path recommended to attain the oneness, path of Bakthi yoga to realize the reality.

Philosophy - “Advaita, Vasistadhvaitha, Dvaita etc”, all can fit into this path. Say a Vainavite can be philosophically an Advaithic! A Saivite can philosophically a Dvaitic!

A Brahmana or any other Varna person can fit into or follow any path mentioned above and can have any philosophy as well. (Note: For a Vedic person the worship is different, it is only nature and the elements, fire, water, ether, air and the earth, for a Vedic person every thing in nature is a ‘Devatha’ and all the rituals are for Devathas only).

Now a Brahmana can be an Iyer or Iyengar or given any name as he holds and assumes he belong to, but for the matter of fact, Iyer or Iyengar belong to Brahmana Varna. I would like to quote a brief from Manu, a Brahmana male can marry even other Varna women, in case of a ‘Dharmic’ necessity and this is permitted because of the Y-Chromosome factor! (remember as I said in my earlier thread about Y-Chromosome, so for a Brahmana male only a Brahmana progeny would born, but this is not true if a Brahmana women marry other Varna men, because She does not carry Y-C and could not procreate a Y-C of Brahmana). So it is evident that there is no such reference made in Shastra that an Iyengar vs. Iyer is not allowed! In fact these terminologies came only few centuries before. So simply a Brahmana vs. Brahmana is perfect!

Now there may raise a doubt, “if a Brahmana men can procreate a Brahmana, then what is wrong if inter Varna marriage is done!"?
Our Shastra says, Men carry the Jeeva (Sookshma Shareera), vitality, personality and characteristics of the progeny in him in the form of Sukla (semen), Women carry the influencing factor (genetical material) to grow limbs such us, spinal card, skull, hair etc., of the progeny. Which means we carry the Jeeva and the Y-C which is given by our Father and our Limbs (mostly all the main limbs) which was given by our Mother.
[Recently: I heard this from my wife: (She is a bio-chemist and a researcher) Men do develop their nipples even though there is no use of it as men won’t feed! Why is that necessary for men? Because initially during conception every embryo is designed as Female template physically, then due to some genetical influence the fetus will start growing as male or female, since the embryo started as female, male carry many physical structures of a female, once such is development of nipple and Male embryo keeps carrying this till fully develop.].

Consider the below char based on what i have understood by comparing the Shastras and some medical/biological data and with my perception:
Sookshma Shareea (causal body)
Sthoola Shareea (physical body)

A. Brahmana Male + Brahmana Female = Sookshma Shareea of Brahmana men + Sthoola Shareea of Brahmana women = Sthoola, Sukshma Brahmana progeny

B. Brahmana Male + Other Varna Female = Sookshma Shareea of Brahmana men + Sthoola Shareea of Other Varna women = Sukshma Brahmana and Sthoola of Other varna, progeny

C. Other Varna Male + Brahmana Female = Sookshma Shareea of Other Varna men + Sthoola Shareea of Brahmana women = Sthoola Brahmana, Sukshma of Other Varna progeny

A. Optimum choice
B. (Left to you to comment)
C. (Left to you to comment)
J

I would say everyone have choices, everyone have the option to choose the optimum choices.

Our Shastra says a progeny should be a Brahmana in attitude as well as in physic that is why we give much importance to our daily practices of pooja, rituals and samprathaya to be in Brahmana attitude and eat sathvic food to be in Brahmana physic J mind you food influence our attitude as well!

Philosophical aspect:

All the above is only for the ‘vyavahara’ means the worldly presence. As long as you have a connection with the world and considering world as reality and materialistic. For a Jnani, Turavi this Varna classification won’t fit!

Our Shastra also says: Janmana Jayathe Sudhraha: Karmana Jayathe Twijaha: Brahme idhi vidhihi Brahmanaha:
Which means, by birth all are Sudhra, by doing what is prescribed for you in this world, you become a Twija (Twice Born), when you are in aware of reality by only meditating on that ultimate and supreme reality the Brahman, then only you are a Brahmana!

For Vyavahara, we need to consider all the above said A, B, C and other factors, For pure philosophy there is No Jathi, No Madham, No Vrnam.

I have tried to brief what is said in oceans of our sacred scripts, with a little knowledge what I had inferred form great men and Periyava. If my understanding on this is wrong in any way, you have all the rights to correct me.

RV

[Phlkxkbh]

Aum

Dear Sri Venkatraman,

Pranaams. I agree with the first part of your posting. While Brahmana as a varna is of the Prakrthi, the subcastes such as Iyer, Iyengar etc. are of Vikrthi and therefore not saasvatham. Therefore one should not stand in the way of marriage between subcastes if it is the liking of the couple as it is not violative of Varna Dharma.

On second part, I have the following comments. We actually have three bodies viz. Sthoola Sariram, Sookshma Sariram and KARANA SARIRAM. While Sthoola Sariram is physical the other two are metaphysical. They cannot be combined for the sake of argument. On waking state all the three sarirams are present in us, while in dream state the sthoola sariram is absent and in deep sleep only the karana sariram is present. I shall be posting more on the bodies in my Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism in due course.

With Narayana Smrithi,
Anbu

[hHwJ229h]

No one has answered my question on Kanchi Sankarachcharya (periyaval) not seeing widows. Why is everybody silent? Look, guys, unless we self-examine ourselves and talk about our faults and short-comings, nothing good is going to come out. I would like to know if this was true.

[Opperioav]

Dear Silverfox,

I did answer you and it is under the thread 'temple priests' where you put the question.

Narayana Smrithi,
Anbu

[Vulkanevsel]

[RV] - Sri Anbu Ji, really appreciate your comments, the points you have mentioned are perfect! Actually i didnt want to go deep into this as it would prolong and will endup elsewhere perhaps away from the context hence i didnt go deep into the aspect of the prikrithi/sheeth/layer etc., Good that you had mentioned. I will surely contribute my thoughts on these aspects once you post your Musing on Physical/Metaphysical sheeths. Hari Om

[krek-sikUp]

Dear Sri Venkatraman,

From your writings I inferred that you are indeed capable of enlightening our dear readers. Please do keep posting on this and many other topics. Brahmanas need this forum and knowledgeable people like you to further their knowledge so they can face the world with confidence and pass on this great knowledge to their children.

With warm regards and Narayana Smrithi,
Anbu

[rJohutozsfds]

This is a response to the interesting genetic dynamics presented by Sri Venkataraman.

I don't know much about genetics but I find it a bit difficult to endorse the idea that the genetic materials of women contribute to nothing more than physical attributes. This does not explain how and why in one single house some siblings have the father's character and others have the mother's character.

It also does not explain how sometimes the son of an alcoholic does not wind up an alcoholic. To use an example from mythology - Prahalada was the son of Hiranyakashipu. Yet he showed no signs of the Asura nature of Hiranyakashipu. Similarly Rama was the son of Dasharata - yet Dasharata had four wives and Rama was strictly monogamous. I am not saying Prahalada and Rama inherited qualities of their mother but if the Y chromosome is the ONLY source of character then these are very honorable exceptions indeed.

[indahouweres]

I wish to add one more point.

To say a woman's gotram does not matter means we are reducing the role of a woman to an object or an entity that serves as a means to an end - 'means' being procreation and 'end' being carrying on the lineage.

This kind of belief does not accept that women have brains and that capacity for intelligence also happens to carry genetic material. If women are mere carriers of genes and they don't have any individuality then they, technically, should not be capable of any thinking at all!

[Aluback]

Dear Anbu Ji,

Your words are really encouraging. I see your commitment here. Commitment accompanied by interest, passion and knowledge and with an unshaken vision for a goal is like a fire; the fire will glow as long as we fuel it and I am very happy to say that the fuel is available in abundance like the one here, this forum! And this fire will glow in me and wish should glow in all till the final aahoothi . As said in Rig Veda 10,191 sukta (considered to be the last sukta) let us contemplate:

“Go together, speak together, know
your minds to be functioning together from
a common source, in same manner as the
impulses of creative intelligence, in the
beginning, remain together united near the
source.”

“United be (y)our purpose, harmonious
be (y)our feelings, collected be (y)our mind,
in the same way as all the various aspects
of the universe exist in togetherness,
wholeness.
“
Hari Om
RV

[adarmaSen]

Dear Chintana Ji

I am really happy and appreciate for your time taken in reading my thoughts posted on this matter. You are just reflecting your name ‘Chintana’! J Unless the urge of pondering developed we wouldn’t be in this state of living and no Vedas would have been revealed! Thanks once again for your comments and the ‘points to ponder’

Just to say a little bit about me, I am not a Genetics expert as well! J I had to forsake studies on science after my higher studies! From then my discipline was business and admin. Thus away from science stream, but I am very much in touch and interested/trilled about biology and physics (especially quantum physics) and keeping the science spirit up to understand our philosophy and religion with the aid of it to some extent! And the posting was one such.

I had quoted:

“Geneticists used a scientific fact, that most of the male Y-chromosome is passed intact from father to son. Females do not carry the Y-chromosome. Genetically there was transference of some unique characteristics only from father to son (in the form of Y-chromosomes)

More research on Genetics will bring out more findings on this.”

It was all basic findings and yet to be discovered many facts! So it is open as of now. Moreover I had quoted from our Shastra about the Jeeva and the physical body, in fact the progeny shares many characters from both father and mother, but the emphasize was on the mutation of the Y-C hence I had to lean towards the father to quote what basic things are carried and passed only by the father, in case if the progeny is a Male then the probability of the Y-C mutation is higher and this is based on the Genetics research! Hence male Gothram is predominent.

Of course you are correct as well we inherit many physical / mental characteristics from our parents. And while growing we develop many characters by watching our parents as well J so the more impressed characters inferred by us, showed by our parents will be seen/ reflected in us.

Thanks for quoting about Sri Prahaladha, Sri Ram Ji ....

Though Prahalada was the son of Hiranyakashipu, Prahlada's mother Kayadhu was considered the property of her husband. To please Hiranyakashipu, she had given up jnana- and bhakti-yoga when she returned to the palace to give birth to Prahlada. However, her child was born remembering everything!

It is believed that during the pregnancy the child learn by just listening thro the mother’s ears on what is happening around, an example Abhimanyu the son of Arjuna, who learnt the technique of penetrating a bhadhma vyuha, we know this well. But this is not the Y-C factor. To simply say Y-C factor is set of characters bio-coded and preserved in Male chromosome the same way X-C factors are bio-coded and preserved in Female chromosome. X-C has its own characters and physical development so as Y-C. Perhaps, the uniqueness of Y-C can be mutating thus persevered characteristics of a Rishi, and X-C can mutate to produce a ‘Rishika’

“This kind of belief does not accept that women have brains and that capacity for intelligence also happens to carry genetic material. If women are mere carriers of genes and they don't have any individuality then they, technically, should not be capable of any thinking at all!

I really honor the urge to express your perception and thoughts as in above, and would like to quote some uniqueness of our culture in terms of the state and position of Women right from the Vedic Ages.

Rig Veda [RV] is the only scripture among those of all religions in which the Divine Truths are revealed to women sages also and some of these hyms describing the revelation find a prominent place in the RV Samhita like the hymn (10.125) (tenth mandala, 125 sukta or hymn) attributed to the woman sage Vak Ambrini. There are more than thirty women sages in RV with specific hymns associated with them. In all the semitic religions like Christianity, Islam etc., there is no mention of any elevation to women and no woman is listed among the prominent disciples of the founders or prophets of those religions. These are numerous hymns in the RV indicating the high status accorded to women in the Vedic society. RV (10.27.12) explicitly states that the practice of a lady choosing her own husband was in vogue. Many more…

1. Women / Men are considered to by ‘Purusha’ hence whatever said in our Shastras are for both Women and Men (but there are certain exceptions too)
2. Just due to some physical differences and physical attributes certain mental attributes and differences are common amongst Women and men and which is evident in ‘Vyavahara’ (in the present existing physical realm, the world) and this has to be accepted.
3. In terms of Intelligence or brain development, women develops her brain earlier than Men, hence biologically Women are intelligent than Men J

The subjects we are dealing are a vast and deep one, hoping many postings on this.

Hari Om
RV

[scewLacysmazy]

Dear Sri Venkataraman,

Thank you for your reply.

[quote=RVenkatraman]
I had quoted from our Shastra about the Jeeva and the physical body, in fact the progeny shares many characters from both father and mother, but the emphasize was on the mutation of the Y-C hence I had to lean towards the father to quote what basic things are carried and passed only by the father, in case if the progeny is a Male then the probability of the Y-C mutation is higher and this is based on the Genetics research! Hence male Gothram is predominent.

Why was there an emphasis only on the mutation of Y-Chromosome? Who placed that emphasis?

According to your words in case the progeny is a male then the "probability" of Y-Chromosome mutuation is higher. This does not rule out that there are atleast a few times when the X-chromosome plays a role.

Also, in my elementary understanding genetic mutation is a big deal. It usually has dramatic effects. Sometimes such effects can be so dramatic as to create the template for a new species. This is the underlying argument of Darwin's theory of evolution. But what we as individuals inherit is a "combination" of genetic materials from the father and the mother. I don't know if that combination can be called mutation.

And even if we accept the idea that it is the Y-Chromosome that is solely responsible for change, intelligence, spiritual evolution and development in an individual then Brahmin men are solely to be blamed for the present state of degeneration of the community. The 'Jeeva Sarira' (of Brahmins today) that you explain bears no resemblance to the spiritual powers of Vashishta and Vishwamitra (whose Gotrams we claim to belong to). The 'Sthoola Sarira' that you explained is filled sometimes with beer and non-vegetarian food. The clothes that adorn the Sthoola Sarira are Western where men inherit the nonsensical habit of wearing a tie when the temperature outside is 40 degrees Centrigrade or over 100 degrees Fahrenheit.

Women in my parents generation did not drink and smoke and eat non-vegetarian food. And if the Y-Chromosome has prompted men to alter themselves so unrecognizably is it fair that we continue to consider men as worthy of carrying the lineage? They have proved themselves to be utterly irresponsible. So why should we respect the Y-Chromosome as the bearer of lineage?

I see that you have recognized the value of women's roles by mentioning that there are at least 30 women sages mentioned in the Rig Veda. So how is it we don't have any Gotrams attributed to them?

I think it is great that women enjoy a very good position in the Vedas but how is it that it is not translated into actual practice? Christians may not have such an elevated status for women in their scriptures but in the West they do a far better job of treating them well.

I hope I am being clear here. I think lineage can be a wonderful thing but I think it should go to people who have proven themselves to be responsible. Sometimes sons are worthy other times daugthers are worthy.

To say that lineage can be recognized only through men shuts out the possibility that Divine Mother can be born as a human female just as Lord Krishna was born a human male. I would love to have been the daughter of a human manifestation of Divine Mother and her devotee husband just as much as I would have loved to have been the daughter of Lord Krishna and Radha. In the former case I would be proud to count my lineage on matrilineal lines and in the latter along patrilineal lines.

I think any system of rigity refuses to accept the possibility that God can appear through any human form. And devotees of God can occur in any family, in any gender.

Do you think some of our rigid ways has caused us to not invite God into our lives? Do you think God went away from the lives of Brahmins because S/He felt sad at what has happened?

[Ekzamenov]

Way to go, Chintana! Bravo! Heavy stuff!

I think you have posed some excellent and thought-provoking questions. I cannot wait to read the responses!

[hapasaparaz]

hai all,
I think aprt form humanity services etc., God is also considered as knowledge that is pure and and tht can positive results when lead to action.But as far we see now there is no clarity in the purpose we are caryying nor there is a need to achieve that greatest knowledge which i say is god.Brahmins werre givn a better choice to chose their knowledeg by being more active in brain ina selfless way than anyother castes.i also believ that brahmins had the power to reach god thru meditation .And so si feel that god has gone away fromus coz we have not been ablke to practise all the simple things thatwe thought were our custom to reach god.I also feel that people are carrying all efforts to get back but we have to c were we all reach!
thnk u

[Forex Autopilot]

Hi Maithreyi,

Is this a general posting or were you specifically responding to the debate/discussion on lineage and chromosomes?

[jesyflowers]

hal chinthana,
I dunno u were talking about something that god doesnt exists among us
cud be i was pointing on that
when i saw this post only these opinions raised in me
thn k