[Khurlxgq]

Do scholars have the right to determine who is and isn't a Muslims???

What gives them this right???

I look at many Muslims, and they aren't best examples to follow, yet they are quick to call Shia non-believers, Salafis non-believers (for believing Allah has man like characteristics), Perennial Muslims non-believers etc etc.

And are we obligated to follow the scholars on these rulings??? Based on what???

Isn't it better for us to let Allah judge???

[Aleenkagirlla]

Assalaamu'alaikum brother,

The only reason that human beings may classify each other as 'muslim' or 'non-muslim' is for legal purposes, e.g. one needs to know if a man is a muslim for a muslim woman to be legally permitted to marry him. Thus the label of kufr is simply for us to be able to define our interactions with other people.

Calling people non-muslims for the purpose of 'damning' them, saying people who sin are non-muslims etc or claiming that such and such people are going to go to hell, is not permissible. If someone says the shahadah, they remain a Muslim even though they may sin, unless they hold true things which are untrue as defined by the scholars of ahl al-sunnah wa'l jama'ah, e.g. ahmadiyya who claim another prophet after nabiyyina Muhammad (saw), or people who claim something haram to be permissible etc.

In the case of Shi'as, their doctrines contain blameworthy innovations and some among them do hold beliefs that are considered to be kufr, e.g. that 'Ali should have been the Prophet (astaghfirullah) and these specific people are held by scholars to be non-Muslim. However most Shi'as are still considered Muslims but are مبتدعون (mubtadi'un - innovators) as they have introduced innovations into the deen.

However, at the end of the day, only Allah knows whether someone is a true Muslim or not as this depends on their sincerity and on the state of their heart, which no other human being will ever know. Thus we shouldn't go around condemning people. A lot of Muslims have these bad habits of being quite self-righteous and not actually knowing much about the details of the deen...

"If a man calls his Muslim brother kafir, it applies to one of the two." (Bukhari)

Wallahu a'lam

[Khurlxgq]

I call it intellectual baggage.... Everything you stated.

You are not a muslim legally, but you might be muslim in the eyes of Allah...
You are a muslim legally, but you might not be Muslim in the eyes of Allah...
It is like, your prayer is legally invalid but Allah might accept your prayer anyway...
Your prayer is legally valid but Allah might not accept your prayer...

What does that means exactly????

No one knows what it means, but when you state it, it makes you appear intelligent......

It seems like legality is another name for riya... showing off in front of others...... Isn't it more important what Allah will accept then what others will accept???

[alecaf]

I call it intellectual baggage.... Everything you stated.

You are not a muslim legally, but you might be muslim in the eyes of Allah...
You are a muslim legally, but you might not be Muslim in the eyes of Allah...
It is like, your prayer is legally invalid but Allah might accept your prayer anyway...
Your prayer is legally valid but Allah might not accept your prayer...

What does that means exactly????

No one knows what it means, but when you state it, it makes you appear intelligent......

It seems like legality is another name for riya... showing off in front of others...... Isn't it more important what Allah will accept then what others will accept???

Allah is ultimately the only one to judge. But he gave us clear guidelines to follow. The 5 pillars of Islam and the Pillars of Iman are clear, straightforward and non-negotiable. Either you accept them and be a Muslim or you don't accept them and be non-Muslim. We have to know whether someone is Muslim or non-Muslim so we can know how to deal with them, its not about passing judgment that we are not fit to pass. You have to know if someone is a Muslim in order for him to marry your daughter. You have to know if someone is a Muslim so you can know if he can lead you in prayer. As in my other thread, I talked about having family members in the Nation of Islam, now they call themselves Muslims, but they adamantly and openly state their belief that God is a biracial 44-year old man and that there was a messenger after RasullAllah SAW and that there is no akhira. Those beliefs render someone a non-Muslim, so if my father learned to make salah, and I would not pray behind him if he professes these beliefs still, but I would not condemn him, because only Allah knows what he actually believes deep in his heart. But for practical purposes, I cannot pray behind him because these beliefs take someone outside of Islam and they clearly oppose several of the pillars of Islam and the pillars of Faith. Allahu A3lam

[pushokalex1]

Not sure what the issue is here. Scholars do not name people directly and declare them kufr except in a few extreme and clear cut cases (Salman Rushdie, for example). Usually scholars will outline what actions that could result in someone crosses the line and be kufr and just leave it at that.

Regarding Shi'a, which Shi'a are you talking about? If you're talking about Shi'a scholars, then you'll find that several scholars do declare them as kufr by name and they will cite books written by those Shi'a scholars to point out the act of kufrs being done publicly by the said Shi'a scholars.

If you're talking about Shi'a laymen, then many of the scholars won't judge them as kufr, but will say that those Shi'a laymen are misguided and deviant. However, scholars have clearly defined what is amount to be kufr and if we see it done by the laymen, then we're obliged to tell them and not to join them in their act of kufr (prostrate to a grave for example).

While not denying that salafi has many groups within themselves, to say that salafi beliefs that Allah has man like characteristics is misleading and not true. If that scholar you've heard is saying that, then he should study more about what salafi groups are saying.

[alecaf]

Not sure what the issue is here. Scholars do not call people by name and declare them kufr except in a few extreme and clear cut cases (Salman Rushdie, for example). Usually scholars will outline what actions that could result in someone crosses the line and be kufr and just leave it at that.

Very true. This is by far the best solution to this problem. I have heard people arguing so many times about whether someone is Muslim or not. If there are clear sings of disbelief although they claim to be Muslim, I would just be cautious around them to safe guard my deen, but theres no need t issue fatwah on them

[truck]

Do scholars have the right to determine who is and isn't a Muslims???

What gives them this right???

I look at many Muslims, and they aren't best examples to follow, yet they are quick to call Shia non-believers, Salafis non-believers (for believing Allah has man like characteristics), Perennial Muslims non-believers etc etc.

And are we obligated to follow the scholars on these rulings???

If they are clear-cut cases, yes.

Based on what???

Based on the words of Allah Ta'ala and His Messenger .

Isn't it better for us to let Allah judge???

Allah commanded us to judge in this life according to the rules He Himself has provided us with.

Which is the alternative, that whoever wanna laber himself as "Muslim" will have to be recognized as such, no matter what he actually professes and believes.
This would be the destruction of Islam - but Allah protects His religion.

[Yartonbler]

It is the utmost duty of the scholors to safguard this deen and one of the ways they do it is by making clear the kufr of some so called muslim who would try to shake the roots of this Din. And when needed it is their duty to come out and openly declare a fatwa againts a particular individual even though if that person hides or takes a shield of the name islam and muslim. The best example in these times was Mirza Ghulam ahmed Qadiyani.

I think this is a fitna that has erupted in our time in the name of islam that we dont consider acknowledge a kafir when he is a clear cut kafir, and we say that we never know he might be a muslim. Well when his islam will be shown no one will acknowledge him as a kafir and in the first place we dont aknowledge a kafir as kafir out of joy , or as if there comes a thrill with that, we rather acknowledge it so it is known and limits are maintained. But offcourse Kafir doesnt mean he is not a human and he has to be treated in a manner how our Deen teaches us to treat a fellow human. And we make dua that before dieing Kafir becomes a muslim, but till then to teach the difference to our young ones and maintain the boundaries of this deen we have to acknowledge who is a kafir and who is not, not in an arrogant way,rather being humble and being concious and maintaing the fear of Allah.And this is the job definitely of the Ulema.Allahualam.

[truck]

It is the utmost duty of the scholors to safguard this deen and one of the ways they do it is by making clear the kufr of some so called muslim who would try to shake the roots of this Din. And when needed it is their duty to come out and openly declare a fatwa againts a particular individual even though if that person hides or takes a shield of the name islam and muslim. The best example in these times was Mirza Ghulam ahmed Qadiyani.

I think this is a fitna that has erupted in our time in the name of islam that we dont consider acknowledge a kafir when he is a clear cut kafir, and we say that we never know he might be a muslim. Well when his islam will be shown no one will acknowledge him as a kafir and in the first place we dont aknowledge a kafir as kafir out of joy , or as if there comes a thrill with that, we rather acknowledge it so it is known and limits are maintained. But offcourse Kafir doesnt mean he is not a human and he has to be treated in a manner how our Deen teaches us to treat a fellow human. And we make dua that before dieing Kafir becomes a muslim, but till then to teach the difference to our young ones and maintain the boundaries of this deen we have to acknowledge who is a kafir and who is not.Allahualam.

[Yartonbler]

JAzakAllah to you too brother for making a clear point.
mine was just a repeat inspired by your post.

[pushokalex1]

to both brother Nazar-Ba-Qadam and brother umar_italy,

your replies made me realize that I made a typo and I was able to fix that.

[Khurlxgq]

Is it sinful to say this person or that person is a muslim if they are not????

If so based on what??? Can you produce a hadith or Quranic Ayat???

[JacomoR]

According to Imam Abu Hanifa, ahla qibla shouldn't be called kafir, rather if they are sinners etc. they should be called fasiq. However, one should know that, if somebody calls himself a Muslim but believes in some other god or believes in some other Prophets etc. They are obviously not Muslim, they are just using the name, like the people in "Nation of Islam", they have nothing to do with Islam at all. But the Shias, Salafees etc. shouldn't be called kafir at all, because it has a grave danger, the Prophet(saw) has said; If someone calls some other person a kafir, then either one of them are a kafir".

[alecaf]

Came across these (check the Arabic to verify, Im' not sure about the exactness of the translation):

`Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.''

(Abu Dawud)

``Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.''

(Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

[Khurlxgq]

So it appears to me that it is sinful to label a "Muslim" a kafir is they are not.

But it does not appear to be sinful to label a kafir a Muslim according to the lawgiver (Allah and His Messenger (sallahu alayhi wa salam)

So why would I follow the accusation of anybody be he a scholar or not that so and so is a kafir, if it is safer to leave it to Allah and believe otherwise???

"Leave that which gives you doubt for that which does not"

[pushokalex1]

So it appears to me that it is sinful to label a "Muslim" a kafir is they are not.

But it does not appear to be sinful to label a kafir a Muslim according to the lawgiver (Allah and His Messenger (sallahu alayhi wa salam)

So why would I follow the accusation of anybody be he a scholar or not that so and so is a kafir, if it is safer to leave it to Allah and believe otherwise???

"Leave that which gives you doubt for that which does not"

brother,

there's a huge repercussion if someone who is a kafir is taken as a Muslim. Example,

- if a guy who is clear cut kufr from his actions would be married to your daughter, or if he will be doing the marriage's aqad for your daughter.
- The same guy prepared foods for you to consume.
- The same guy will become a Islamic judge that everyone else will have to obey.
- etc.

Like all the brothers and sisters tried to explain, when a scholar(s) declared a person(s) to be kufr, especially directly by name, they (the scholars) will have to present proofs (fully documented) to back up their claims. For example, in the case of Qadiayani, ulama' all over the place had debated them and in every single debate, the Qadiayanis were defeated and they couldn't show that they were not against the Quran when their leader claimed himself as a Messenger of God.

As for the laymen, as long as we do not cross the line to commit any act of kufr, then praise be to Allah that we are still Muslims and we continue to ask Allah to protect us all from anything that's kufr, ameen.

Allah Knows best.

[Khurlxgq]

brother,

there's a huge repercussion if someone who is a kafir is taken as a Muslim. Example,

- if a guy who is clear cut kufr from his actions would be married to your daughter, or if he will be doing the marriage's aqad for your daughter.
- The same guy prepared foods for you to consume.
- The same guy will become a Islamic judge that everyone else will have to obey.
- etc.

What you say is not even realistic.... Really those are the repercussion......

How often am I going to marrying my daughter???
How often am I going make somebody am Islamic jugde???
How often do I eat at some random persons home???


I can tell you Not often....

[tactWeiccaf]

What you say is not even realistic.... Really those are the repercussion......

How often am I going to marrying my daughter???
How often am I going make somebody am Islamic jugde???
How often do I eat at some random persons home???


I can tell you Not often....

There are loooaadds of other things which renders a person kaafir. Why don't you find out from a real scholar?

[HsSp82U8]

But it does not appear to be sinful to label a kafir a Muslim according to the lawgiver (Allah and His Messenger (sallahu alayhi wa salam)
[/B]

Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim be miserly?
Prophet(PBUH) : Yes.
Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim be cowardly?
Prophet(PBUH) : Yes.
Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim lie?
Prophet(PBUH) : No.

If you tell a lie you just walk out of Islam. You have indulged in kufr. You have killed your faith, belief, eeman.
When you call a non-believer a Muslim then you are telling a lie.

So just do not label a denier a Muslim.

[oranowdenda]

Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim be miserly?
Prophet(PBUH) : Yes.
Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim be cowardly?
Prophet(PBUH) : Yes.
Companion (RA): O Prophet(PBUH) can a Muslim lie?
Prophet(PBUH) : No.

If you tell a lie you just walk out of Islam. You have indulged in kufr. You have killed your faith, belief, eeman.
When you call a non-believer a Muslim then you are telling a lie.

So just do not label a denier a Muslim.

...thats not true, a person does not go out of Islam by lying, although this a great sin...The hadith is not interpreted such taht every liar leaves Islam.

Assalamualaikum