[9uWzBx4l]

السلام عليكم,

Brother what exactly are you trying to prove? It seems like controversy is being manufactured for no reason. It has been well-established that the correct opinion is 18°. Now if you don't want to follow that then no one is forcing you. What response are you looking for?

I wasn't aware of any controversy.

The original response I was looking for was weather or not timetables printed subh sadiq earleir than it usually is? I was given a link which said it may actually start earlier than even the timetable says in my area. So I asked is anyone knew about the website to verify it (which i'm hoping someone does) because there was some concern about validity of some fasts if they are supposed to start earlier than is written (And not 5 mins later as I had been told in the past.)

I said that it may not even matter because if the 15 degree view is accepted then the fasts could still count anyway because people who follow that start much later then both the timetable and that website.

Now I know that 18 degrees is the majority opinion. But there are some views like mufti taqi usmani (RA) who say use the 15 degree view with "extreme caution." You have also said that 15 degrees not really a majority opinion and mentioned that starting a fast after subh sadiq is a serious matter. I assumed you were talking about the 15 degree view. It seemed to me at least that the idea of following 15 degrees is not acceptable. So when the mufti said it was followable, I was surprised.

I was even MORE surprised that the fast is supposed to start earlier than what is written at the local masjid. if someone was to eat or drink up to the last minute and prayercalc is right, their fast may not count. my masjid is very thorough with the times and that is why I was expressing doubt with that website.

If there is any controversy, i apologize but I personally was not aware of anything like that.

[spiveker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uEd-5i3HxGE

Forward the video along to 18:50.

Jazakallah for that link.

he said it was a "followable opinion." which means it is NOT rejected as I understand it.

[Buhoutsoupfap]

I have been using the 18 degrees timetable from the wifaqul ulema website, but the times listed there are upto TWO HOURS earlier than the times stipulated by our local masajid - even the deobandi masjid.

Given the strong evidence for the 18 degree calculation, why are masajids listing sehri times very late - even later than 15 degrees! It doesn't make sense that they are intentionally jepeordising the fasts of the people who don't know any better.

I can understand them using the last 7th position (if that's what they do) for the period the subh sadiq doesn't occur, but what about when subh sadiq does enter ??

[Kimmitmelvirm]

I don't think the brother is trying to be controversial in any way. I think you have misunderstood his intentions. There is only one mosque in my locality and it follows the 15 degrees ruling, hence there are some of us in the dilemma as to whether to inform others, who are ignorant of the matter, that this is not an "viable" opinion (inevitably this will cause some kinda of commotion by the community). However if the 15 degrees ruling is a viable opinion then why the need to cause commotion.

I am not aware of any masjid in the UK that follows 15 degrees

They either follow 18 degrees or the research of a small group ( 3-4 ) hizbul ulama in which their times fluctuates from lower than 12 degrees to over 18 degrees

Let's leave out the argument of either 18 or 15 degrees and purely concentrate on the mushahada of hizbul ulama research, then we will understand that it is not permissible to follow their research

Then the question would be what do the people of UK do ?

The answer was given to the ulama of UK by mufti mahmood ul hassan gangohi and that was to use the 18 degrees method

[excivaamome]

Aint got much time so ill reply in detail later on inshallah

But do not use islamicfinder, it uses different methods for higher latitude countries, i have also got a email from them confirming this. For fajr they use the nearest country time and use that for many months where the fajr time is early (even though fajr time happens), which according to most ulama (wifaqululama and others) is not allowed. I will reply in detail later

Can you post their reply here for benefit of others?

I have been e-mailing them a couple of times asking how exactly they calculate fajr and isha for those areas, but no reply has been given yet.

Islamicfinder.org is misleading the masses.

[sitescools]

Yes I have looked at those links. why?

'cos I think your question are answered in them...

[mudozvonf]

Far as i know PrayerCalc is a website created by a brother from London and was developed in consultation with Wifaqul Ulama

Does this mean it IS trustworthy?

I'm not sure. I cannot understand why subh sadiq is written as earlier than the masjid. I thought the masjid wrote it as 5 mins later.

[jojocomok]

I don't think the brother is trying to be controversial in any way. I think you have misunderstood his intentions. There is only one mosque in my locality and it follows the 15 degrees ruling, hence there are some of us in the dilemma as to whether to inform others, who are ignorant of the matter, that this is not an "viable" opinion (inevitably this will cause some kinda of commotion by the community). However if the 15 degrees ruling is a viable opinion then why the need to cause commotion.

السلام عليكم,

Jazaakumallah both of you for clearing that up for me. I guess I was confusing repetition due to surprise at the situation with repetition due to argumentation.

The answer to this situation is to:
a) Follow 18º yourself.
b) Calmly and without argumentation inform the masjid committee. If they don't accept, leave them, no need to argue, it will be their responsibility on the Day of Judgement.
c) Whoever of your friends you can inform in the same manner, you should.

Most of the time, commotion is caused because we can't control ourselves from reciprocating when somebody responds negatively.

[Shiplyopidomi]

السلام عليكم,

With regards to Fajr time, as far as I know, there isn't a scholarly difference of opinion of 15 vs. 18 degrees. The scholars are agreed on the observable phenomenon in the sky that marks the beginning of Fajr time. The question is just how to calculate the time of that phenomenon accurately- that is, it is a matter of astronomy rather than jurisprudence. The way to be certain is for someone, who knows how to tell the start time of Fajr from the sky, to go out of the city in your locality and mark down the time when they observe Subh Sadiq and compare that to the timetable.


Even if your local masjid distributes 15º timetables, it is necessary for you to stop your fast at 18º. It's not a matter of scholarly opinion, a person can always go out with someone who knows how to recognize Subh Saadiq and observe the sky for themselves.

No worries. Yes, finally figured out I need to get rid of the link

It seems many here disregard Islamic finder for using correct methods, good thing because they had Fajr starting even EARLIER than the prayercalc website.

(I use the 18 degree timetable.) As for going out of the city to look for subh sadiq, it has been mentioned that as far as 5 miles out is a different subh sadiq is listed than the local masjid. So the times cannot apply EXACTLY to people living in the city as I understand it. this is just a small point though..

The link you provided (had some interesting details but) never disregarded the 15 degree viewpoint and actually mentioned a highly respected shaikh supporting it. 18 degrees seems to be the majority opinion but I do not believe that the 15 degree opinion is totally rejected. If someone did go out and look and supported the 18 view, then someone should say theat the 15 degree view is TOTALLY REJECTED to use for starting the fast. No ulama have done that yet , I understand.

[85IbLcwQ]

Brother have you actually read the list of articles I posted above?

Yes I have looked at those links. why?

[Cnbaapuy]

No worries. Yes, finally figured out I need to get rid of the link

It seems many here disregard Islamic finder for using correct methods, good thing because they had Fajr starting even EARLIER than the prayercalc website.

(I use the 18 degree timetable.) As for going out of the city to look for subh sadiq, it has been mentioned that as far as 5 miles out is a different subh sadiq is listed than the local masjid. So the times cannot apply EXACTLY to people living in the city as I understand it. this is just a small point though..

The idea is to confirm which calculation method is correct. So you would go out of the city and observe subh sadiq, and compare the times with the timetable for the area where you are observing. Then you will confirm the calculation method that you can then use in the city.

The link you provided (had some interesting details but) never disregarded the 15 degree viewpoint and actually mentioned a highly respected shaikh supporting it. 18 degrees seems to be the majority opinion but I do not believe that the 15 degree opinion is totally rejected. If someone did go out and look and supported the 18 view, then someone should say theat the 15 degree view is TOTALLY REJECTED to use for starting the fast. No ulama have done that yet , I understand. Actually, it mentioned that in actuality Hazrat did not use 15º for the beginning of the fast either. Rather he just used that for fajr as a result of extreme caution.

[Stoniaanapy]

If I am doing Maghrib prayer and am on the third rak'at when the adhan for Isha prayer starts, will my maghrib prayer be in order? Or will I have to gadha maghrib? Please answer as soon as possible

Yes it's valid and you don't have to do qada' nor it is considered as qada' but you shouldn't delay your maghrib Salah up to that point.

I don't know anything about the prayercalc website. There doesn't seem to be any information at all about it except there is an email address.

That software was hosted on the Wifaq ul Ulama website for some time until they took it off just before Ramadhan, I think due to being there need for more space for other issues, Allahu knows best.
As brother confirmed:

Far as i know PrayerCalc is a website created by a brother from London and was developed in consultation with Wifaqul Ulama

then someone should say theat the 15 degree view is TOTALLY REJECTED to use for starting the fast. No ulama have done that yet , I understand.

Brother have you actually read the list of articles I posted above?

[jincomplet]

السلام عليكم,

Brother what exactly are you trying to prove? It seems like controversy is being manufactured for no reason. It has been well-established that the correct opinion is 18°. Now if you don't want to follow that then no one is forcing you. What response are you looking for?

I don't think the brother is trying to be controversial in any way. I think you have misunderstood his intentions. There is only one mosque in my locality and it follows the 15 degrees ruling, hence there are some of us in the dilemma as to whether to inform others, who are ignorant of the matter, that this is not an "viable" opinion (inevitably this will cause some kinda of commotion by the community). However if the 15 degrees ruling is a viable opinion then why the need to cause commotion.

[HawksBurnDown]

Can you post their reply here for benefit of others?

I have been e-mailing them a couple of times asking how exactly they calculate fajr and isha for those areas, but no reply has been given yet.

Islamicfinder.org is misleading the masses.

Ok, where do i start, we had a presentation in our masjid, after the presentation during the Q&A time a brother said he has got the 18 degrees time from islamic finder which does not match our local masjid time which also uses 18 degrees, so we were puzzled and knew there was something wrong. So we went on to http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/surfbin/pla...0cded55006a63e and checked on there and the times matched our local masjids. We showed this to the brother and told him there must be a error on what he brought.

I then contacted islamic finder and this is what i wrote with the reply from them
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Asalamualykum

We were looking at the fajr begining times according to the 18 degrees rule(islamic sciences of karachi), the times on the almanac website
(http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/surfbin/runsurf.cgiis) is much different to the times on islamic finder.

For eg. on may 23-july 21 there is no fajr time due to persistant twilight, on islamic finder the times given are from around 2.30am. So which method have you used for this month?

Also when fajr does begin according to 18degrees on july 21st the times on almanac shows fajr at 1.10am but on islamic finder it shows 2.37am on the same day, why is there a difference?

This is causing confusion in our area for people who use this website especially during ramadhan.

We would be very grateful if you can answer the questions and give us the methods used by yourselves.

Jazakallah"
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And here is the reply from islamic finder

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Assalamu Alaikum!

Thank you for writing to us. When the angle of the sun under the Horizon does not reach to 18 degrees (As you asked for 18 degrees) so IslamicFinder is using one Fatwa through which we assume latitude of your place is equal to 45 degrees in order to achieve the required angle 18 degrees. The scholar of the Fatwa are Bin Baz Bin Othemian most from Saudi Arabia.


If you have any further question or suggestion then please do not hesitate to write us.

Best Regards,
Islamic Finder
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Then my mufti saab also forwarded a email to islamic finder

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"السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Thanks for your reply.

The persisting twilight period is only between 23rd May till 20th July, therefore from 21 July the sun does go 18 degrees below the horizon, therefore the 18 degrees time would be 01:10am but Islamic Finder's recommendation is to use 02:32am. (see attachment for 18 degrees times) and also see this link.

The question is on what basis is 02:32am is recommended? Are you still using 18 degrees times from 45 degrees latitude on the basis of hardship? From when do you start using times from 45 degrees latitude and till what date?

Kindly clarify this in detail as one Muslim brother is quite confused.

والسلام
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After the last email there has been no reply

So basically they use one of the methods (nearest latitude - Aqrab Al-Balad) and take the time of a near by place (France) when fajr at 18 degrees does happen and use that time for london during the period of persistent twilight (london - 23rd May till 20th July), but where (islamic finder) find that the 18 degrees time is to early (even though fajr at 18 degrees does happen) they have used the same method as they do with the time of persistent twilight for other periods of the other months.

This is why their fajr times and maybe isha times does not match up.

[engacenus]

Far as i know PrayerCalc is a website created by a brother from London and was developed in consultation with Wifaqul Ulama

[rhybrisee]

السلام عليكم,

Sorry for the posts being moderated. It was because of the link and your being a new member (as I think you figured out ).

If you're still eating while the sun is already in subh sadiq time then that is a very serious matter. The prayer time schedule is a convenience for knowing when the sun is at that time.

As is mentioned in the link that I quoted, it is necessary for the person to know how to recognize subh sadiq, and go out of the city where there is no pollution and lights, etc. in order to confirm the timetables. That has been done, and the results support the 18º timetable. This is all discussed in that link.

I don't know anything about the prayercalc website. There doesn't seem to be any information at all about it except there is an email address. You can double check the times here: islamicfinder.org. When you click through and select a particular city, you can choose the calculation options right underneath the time listings. Does that agree with prayercalc?

Aint got much time so ill reply in detail later on inshallah

But do not use islamicfinder, it uses different methods for higher latitude countries, i have also got a email from them confirming this. For fajr they use the nearest country time and use that for many months where the fajr time is early (even though fajr time happens), which according to most ulama (wifaqululama and others) is not allowed. I will reply in detail later

[TypeTeasiaDer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uEd-5i3HxGE

Forward the video along to 18:50.

[JackieC]

bump

[Escamsrasiush]

Most people are not even aware of these things and just follow the times provided by their mosques, so is there any blame on them?

The mosques in my area have sehri times even later than 15 degrees so I'm not sure what method they are using or if it is valid.

The time of subh sadiq is part of the fard-'ayn knowledge, so it is the responsibility of every Muslim to learn this. If they sincerely trust someone who deceives them about it then it's another matter. But ignorance because of never learning the ruling is no excuse. Islam is not a monkey-see, monkey-do religion.

[acneman]

The idea is to confirm which calculation method is correct. So you would go out of the city and observe subh sadiq, and compare the times with the timetable for the area where you are observing. Then you will confirm the calculation method that you can then use in the city.



Actually, it mentioned that in actuality Hazrat did not use 15º for the beginning of the fast either. Rather he just used that for fajr as a result of extreme caution.

I think I've heard that ulama have actually done that (gone out to see the sky). but then why didn't that ulama say in the leaflet clearly and completely: "the 15 degree method is wrong"? I do believe it is a matter of jurisprudence because it should be said to the people that they should not follow a particular viewpoint. yet no one has said that. most people will look at the timetable and accept it.

I re-checked and yes it says he used 18 degrees for the end of the fast and 15 for the beginning of fajr. Maybe I understand it completely wrong but isn't the beginning of fajr, the time of subh sadiq or the beginning of the fast? Again maybe I misunderstand.