[MzTT]

So, we all know conformation, working ability/drive, health and temperament are considerations when deciding to breed a dog. But what about intelligence? Intelligence is genetic, after all. Does anyone take that into consideration when choosing a mate for your dog? Would any of you decline to breed a litter because one or both parents are otherwise qualified to breed, but are dumb as a crate of hammers?

[AXGreg]

I don't breed currently but the main reason I am neutering my male Malinois is because of this. To be specific his hard time with learning, lacking desirable biddability. No matter the titles we get with him he is not IMO intelligent, biddable, and comfortable enough with learning to breed.

With my female this is a huge plus in her win column, she's very smart, very biddable and very comfortable with being wrong and trying again (essential to free shaping).

I used to think a nice pedigree and titles said all I needed to know (and health) but now the intelligence and biddability are extremely important to me. We'll be picking our stud specifically with this in mind in addition to the normalized requirements.

[dabibibff]

Very good question! I think its important but unless the dog you're breeding is your own it can be hard to determine intelligence. I had a dog my husband said was as dumb as a box of rocks and he couldn't stand him BUT the dog did what I wanted him to lol. So, to him he was stupid but for me, he was smart - just selectively so.

I would be more likely to breed a smart dog who was a good worker and had good conf 'vs' a stupid dog that was a grch

[Berta]

Heck yeah it matters to me! I absolutely cannot stand a stupid dog! I had a beautiful bitch I paid good money for and gave her away cuz she was dumb as rocks! I love smart dogs. I swear some of mine understand English LOL.

[dwestemesse]

When I agreed to let a friend use Judge, I did a ton of research. I did the normal pedigree and health testing research. I also looked at the females biddability compared to Judges as well as ability to learn via numerous methods.

Judge lacks some biddability but he is highly intelligent and will try things until he gets it right. When evaluating the female, I wanted a dog that had good intelligence and the ability to learn quickly and easily, one who also had a higher level of biddability than Judge. It worked out and the puppies all have a higher level of biddability than their father.

The litter that he produced has been very biddable, highly intelligent and according to some owners that use marker/clicker training, they pick things up quickly. The pick puppy went to a Service Dog home, where she is being trained with the intention of being a service dog. At 10 months old, the dog has never worn any collar other than a flat collar and she is picking things up for the owner, knows how to turn lights off among a lot of other commands. She has been trained thus far using Purely positive methods, clicker to be exact. She is very balanced in her drives and is all around an extremely wonderful puppy.

I personally would never breed a "dumb" dog. I want any puppies I produce to be able to learn quickly, easily and be intelligent enough to try,try again.

[MzTT]

Good to know! I am also of the opinion that intelligence matters. Rita is the sweetest dog ever, very loving and very willing. However, she is not that bright. Even if she physically healthy and had titles I still wouldn't breed her just because of that.

When my husband and I were making up our list of dog requirements we both put intelligence at the top. The main reason I wanted Renee was because her sire is a freaking genius and her dam is very smart as well as both being loving and willing to please type dogs. Renee is scary smart. I adore her even when her intelligence means she figures out how to get into things that the rest of my dogs can't, lol. In the last week alone she has learned to scale the entertainment center shelves and to let herself out of her crate.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

Oh, and the crate thing? She only lets herself out when we have company over she wants to greet. The rest of the time she stays in her crate because she was told to. She just gets so ridiculously happy and excited when people come to visit that she can't make herself stay put.

[fuslssdfaa]

Speaking of intelligence and IQ, I wonder if you can actually increase IQ in dogs while they are in the womb...or while puppies, like you can with babies and small children just by adding omega 3's in the diet. That certainly would be worth finding out. .....

[Rupeviv]

I think this is another reason to wait for maturity prior to breeding. Before Lily was maybe 20 months old, I swear, she simply had hamsters running on wheels in her brain to keep her heart pumping and that was it. She was smart, but in a "tell me what to do and I'll do it" kind of smart. She picked up on things very quickly, but only if you walked her through the steps first. She's now 2.5 years old and I'm seeing her ability to self-shape and learn behaviors by herself, where before, if you didn't tell her what to do, she'd either shut down or just stare deep into your soul trying to psychically figure it out .

But yea, that's my take on it. I don't breed, but if I did, that would be another reason to wait for maturity. Sometimes dogs are smarter than we think, they just need to get through adolescence.

[AXGreg]

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

Speaking of intelligence and IQ, I wonder if you can actually increase IQ in dogs while they are in the womb...or while puppies, like you can with babies and small children just by adding omega 3's in the diet. That certainly would be worth finding out. .....

The last seminar I was at sited a lot of research done with this in mind for working dogs and they found keeping mom working in obed, scent, and so forth actually increased the stability and biddability and foundation scent work for the puppies. I'll look for the sources when I get home.

[Rupeviv]

Was it that he was not obedient or that he would not learn things on his own? I think part of the problem with Lily was that I taught her NOT to think for herself. I said, whatever I say goes. Don't do anything without permission. And if I tell you something, don't question it.

When we started working agility, that whole train of thought, that way of thinking, had to be tossed out the window. She needed to know it was ok to make her own decisions. If I say "towel" but I mean "table", read my body cues over my voice commands and THINK about what the most logical step in that progression of obstacles should be. I don't want a dog that goes "what, 'towel'?" I want a dog to go "I know what she means" and move on with life.

Before teaching her how to learn, which is really what shaping is, she didn't have the mental capacity to think like that. Her brain was not wired that way not genetically but because of the way I taught her to learn, which was do what I say not what I do, and don't make a mistake. She had to learn that making mistakes was ok. Even now, she'll shut down if she makes too many mistakes in a row. This wouldn't happen to a dog taught from an early age the art of shaping. I can plainly see the difference between her and the poodles, not because of breed or genetics but how they were taught, as puppies, to think.

This isn't to say some dogs just won't learn that way. But it is to say that, if I didn't teach her now to learn the way I wanted her to learn, she'd still be back in that "I'll sit here for eternity until you tell me what to do" frame of mind.

Now, I have a dog that will sit in front of her food bowl for hours until told the word to eat, but will also self-shape weaving behavior, while still not eating food off the floor until told to, and while still yet understanding how to back up by simply maintaining heel position in a backwards movement. I'm sort of getting the best of both worlds with her at this point. She's still very "tell me what to do" but with a little more "it's ok, I can figure this out".

[N1bNXuDb]

Yes it matters to me. Stupid dogs don't work as well as intelligent ones and are more likely to have to come back and look for guidance from me when they get into a tough spot they are having trouble figuring out. That's exactly what I don't want.

[remstaling]

Intelligence is a trait ALOT of breeders today have lost. Personality goes hand in hand with that trait IMO that has been lost, moreso in AmBullies than APBT's. I have had 2 females I bought as adults that got rehomed because of that. One was just too drivy (VERY intelligent, it caused problems) and I am not looking or that, but the other would sit there and look at me like I was stupid lol