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Great post Liliana. Explained everything well to a "lay-woman" like me.

From a behavioural stand point and my understanding of temperment in regards to APBT's and other bully breeds I can see how the labelling of breeds that are not true APBT's can be not only angering, but detrimental to the breed. I've dealt with a few of these loose cannons (BYB mutts that to the general public are "pit bulls") and it's not fun, in fact I'm downright scared for some of the families that go home with these dogs, especially the ones with the kids.

good post Lilian!

In the words of Dave Wilson.The man proclaimed to be the founder of the breed...
RAZORSEDGE INC.

I think he and his minions also (and mostly) wanted that big, heavy-boned, heavy-headed, thick look and simply started breeding ASTs and APBTs that WERE that. It wasn't a difficult thing to do and he simply bred what are considered by most to be really bad, incorrect Stafs and Pits. And it got horribly taken to extremes and while the beginnings were bad enough, what it has ended up to be is one very sad exploitation of a breed by some very unethical people.

Now the whole bullie thing is ridiculous and confusing (my opinion). The bullee people will tell you a bully is recognizable by PEDIGREE, not by looks; so if a dog is a racy, game-bred type looking dog, if it has some Gaff or Razor's edge in it's pedigree, it's a bullie! So, whatever....

The bullie lovers won't admit that they are just breeding very incorrect ASTs and APBTs. They need SOMETHING to make it all sound legit, so they have shows and different classes for all the different types that can be bullies.

In reality, it's all a farce (my opinion) and gets taken way to seriously by people like the OP. There is NOTHING to know, no history to learn, no pedigrees to know, no differences between "breeds" -- except the bulie crowd is breeding very incorrect ASTs and APBTs.

Here is another article to read that I think is very good and may also help answer some of your questions.

Bully: This, That The Other Thing - American Bullies and 'bully style' Pit Bulls

Carla

Carla, Dave Wilson's first dogs weren't that extreme, just on the thick, heavy side, He seemed to like the Gaff type dogs, and even dogs that were a little more moderate. While I found Knuckles overdone, there were plenty of UKC judges that really liked him.

Knuckles to me is a stunning dog,but everyone has their types. Extreme became a class because of sympathy and now that people are concerned about people breeding those types of dogs. There is actually a talk about making a movement to show people the right breeding methods and the way to chose dogs. America. Bullies originated in the united states. BTW

As always, Carla, I couldn't agree with you more on this subject. Great post.

Movement that's a good idea tell the general public that these dogs are not apbt that there bullies and all these extreme ones are not anything but some mixed bred dogs that would be a good thing imo

Alot of us do just that . But because we own bullies we get lumped in with the others.

Yeah, I understand, Leslie....and that is where there is such a problem....UKC (American Pit Bull Terrier!) judges that look at something like Knuckles (and I've just seen pics of him is all) and think THAT is breed worthy! I see a UKC title on him...did he ever get an AKC ch? I find that kind of ironic IF in fact he WAS campaigned in AKC and wasn't able to get a championship there.

People that don't know any better look at that championship and proclaim him to be a correct, standard APBT...and build on that.....and on and on it went....

These bigger, thicker Stafs/Pits have always been popular with novices and those that just don't have the breed's best interests on their mind.

Carla

I promise, I wasn't a great sport when I lost to Knuckles w/a more moderate, and IMO, more correct, dog.

I remember when dave wilson first got onto the scene. He had very stocky amstaffs and crossed with apbts. Some of his first dogs he ran pictures of ads in the UKC Bloodline magazine. They were not my type of dogs but they did not look too bad. Later on he and others admitted to crossing bull dogs into them. For this reason I do not consider Ambullies to be a pitterstaff or APBT. There are many dogs showing UKC and and even some ADBA that have apbts crossed with amstaff. These dogs look great and a person, by looking at them, even a educated one, would consider them an apbt. I call them pitterstaffs and consider them to be apbts, just not gamebred. They are a far cry from a american bully, IMO. I know many people only consider a true pit bull to be a true gamedog, and I can understand that too. I truly understand that.

Now Razors Edge Throwing Knuckles, that's a funny story. He was also in UKC Bloodlines a lot. He was bred by pam perdue. I know one of his co-owners was named Jeannie Howe, for awhile. At least one or two of his UKC wins were under Pam perdue. She was a UKC judge back then too, just like she is now. He was a very popular stud dog for both the Bully people and the pitterstaff folk. When lean, he actually looked good, when fat he looked like an overdone amstaff.

I firmly believe that the modern day ambullies show the heavy influence of the english bulldog crossed in recently(last 10 -15years). To me that makes them not a purebred. Not a pitbull, not an amstaff, not a pitterstaff, and definately not a gamedog.

i agree 100%...and dont forget the mastiff breeds for the XL or XXL. whatever they call them mutts

---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

they are a designer breed. deny it all you want, bitch, cry and moan, but the truth will still be staring you in the face.

Yup. How else can you get super short pits with domes the size of basketballs. English Bulldogs, AmStaffs and Mastiffs.

Bullies originated from APBT, Mastiff, AmStaff, OEB, American Bulldog,....well I could go on and on and on, but you should get the picture. They originate from whatever any particular bully breeder decides to throw in on any given day. http://www.pitbull-chat.com/images/smilies/frown.png