[softy54534]

One of the most often repeated myths of Israel's detractors, as well as anti-semites in general, is the powerful "American zionist lobby". The constant claim is that this so-called powerful lobby is what pushed America to declare war on Iraq and what results in America showing "favoratism" towards Israel in the Middle East Conflict. However, below are some FACTS, rather than propaganda (or emotion), which show that the above theory does not hold water:

For starters, the total Jewish population of America is about 2%. Some estimates might be closer to 3%. The latest survey I could find when googling is for 2002 with Jews being 1.7% of the US population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

Now, within that small Jewish population in America, here are some of their views on Israel:

The poll of 1,700 non-Orthodox American Jews found that indicators of attachment to Israel weakened as age decreased. Among the findings:

*Less than half of Jews under 35 (48 percent) agreed that “Israel’sdestruction would be a personal tragedy.” In contrast, 78 percent of Jews over 65 said it would be a personal tragedy.

*54 percent of Jews under 35 are “comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state,” compared with 81 percent of those 65 years or over who were comfortable with the idea.

*Some 60 percent of Jews under 35 reported that “caring about Israel is an important part of being Jewish.” In the older generation, 80 percent of Jews said caring about Israel was important. Source
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2...israel_06sep06

To be sure, I am hardly comforted by the above statistics, but they just go to show that the average Jew in the US hardly wakes up in the morning worrying about Israel.

One of the organizations that the progenators of the "zionist conspiracy theory in America" always point their fingers to is AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group in Washington. However, let's take a look at how much clout they have in reality. According to counterpunch (not exactly a site biased in Israel's favor), AIPAC has an annual budget of 60 million dollars:

Clearly AIPAC, with 60,000 wealthy members and $60 million annual budget, had more influence on the political behavior of the US executive, political parties and elected representatives than a federal indictment implicating its leaders for espionage on behalf of Israel. http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01072006.html

What is the total annual amount of money spent by all lobbying groups in Washington?

Corporations, industries, labor unions, governments and other interests spent a record $2.79 billion in 2007 to lobby in Washington, the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics has calculated. Source
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news...4/14/89108.htm

Let's see 60 million divided by 2.79 billion is a whopping 2% of the total annual national budget spent on lobbying. A lot of clout there

Now, how many Jews in America pushed America to fight Iraq? Let's take a look at what a Gallup Poll says:

77% of American Jews Oppose Iraq War. Gallup Poll. Jews Against the War http://www.mail-archive.com/cannabis.../msg00022.html

Whether one agrees with America's declared war on Iraq, one thing is for sure. It was not America's Jews who egged on America to fight it.

Lastly, another claim that many of Israel's detractors like to make is that Israel would be a nebech (helpless country) without America. Without fail, they point out the foreign aid which Israel receives from America:

Israel receives roughly about 3 billion dollars in foreign assistance from America each year Source
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

However, Israel's GNP (Gross National Product) in 2008 was about 200 billion dollars:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/is.html

This amounts to American aid coming out to about 1.5% of the Israeli GNP. Keep in mind that 1.8 billion of that 3 billion is spent on defense, which has to be purchased in America and no where else. So that leaves about 1.2 billion that goes towards non-defensive spending.

To be sure, I, as well as most Israelis, value the American/Israeli alliance, and believe we still need each other, but let's be honest about two things:

1) America does not have an alliance with Israel because of an "American Zionist Lobby"

2) Israel would not be a nebech without America and America needs Israel, no less than Israel needs America

[tgs]

Well if you look at the actual spending, AIPAC comes in under the top 50 PACs in the country. Saying there's a Zionist lobby is tantamount to claiming that AARP, UAW, finance and banking, electronics, homebuilding, wall st, cars, oil and defense sit around wasting their money on lobbyists.

[Paul Bunyan]

2) Israel would not be a nebech without America and America needs Israel, no less than Israel needs America

I think this sort of talk is self-delusion of the worst kind because it prevents us from forming competent policies by clouding our judgment. Firstly let's get some sense of proportion here. The US exports approximately $1.4 trillion worth of goods and services annually, and imports around $2.2 trillion. Of those exports, $10 billion go to Israel - a whopping 0.7%. Meanwhile, by a very generous estimation Israeli exports to the US total around $21 billion dollars worth of goods and services, 0.95% of America's total imports. By comparison, Israel is extremely dependent upon US markets for its exports, with 40% of Israeli exports being consumed by the US. Meanwhile US goods and services account for something like 15-25% of Israeli imports. To put it bluntly, the sheer size of the US economy by comparison to our own makes us irrelevant. If all economic relations between us came to an end, the US would get along just fine - Israel would suffer a severe blow.

The military relationship is equally one-sided. I grant you, Israeli technology is sometimes used by the US. But in many of these cases, the research and development of the technology is also funded in large part by the US. This has been the case with Israel's most ambitious military projects including the Lavi (later shut down by the US), M/THEL, the Arrow and Arrow II. Then comes the annual US aid, as well as access to American weaponry and technology which is absolutely vital to guaranteeing our military edge in the region. I know that it is frequently said that this aid amounts to only 1.5% of Israeli GDP and is essentially a subsidy for US arms manufacturers which helps to keep Americans in business, but as far as I am concerned this is the same sort of self-delusion. Firstly, the latter argument seems ridiculous to me, the US could easily stop giving the aid to us and instead give it to their own Department of Defence (it would be a mere ~0.4% increase in its budget) thereby keeping American jobs and getting the military equipment themselves. They've no need to give it to us to do that. As for Israel not being dependent upon the aid, this may be true. But the aid cannot be looked at in isolation - it is the totality of our very favourable military relationship which needs to be considered. The IAF will be among the first air forces in the world to have access to the F-35. More generally America gives Israel access to highly advanced technology certainly not made available to just any nation, and the military aid gives us the capacity to buy that without having to raise the funds ourselves. And as I previously mentioned, there is the matter of American-Israeli joint ventures in defense research, for example the David's Sling ABM system currently under development and a range of other projects.

In the diplomatic sphere, too, we benefit far more than the US do from our relations. Even if we consider only the United Nations Security Council, the sheer number of resolutions vetoed on our behalf are indicative of the international isolation we would likely find ourselves facing were the US not at our side.

It is foolish and dangerous to suppose that the US needs us as much as we need them. It is clearly not the case. We share certain interests and certain common values and ideals, but beyond that the relationship is very much in our favour and we are far more dependent upon it in every way. For us, losing the US as an ally would be absolutely disastrous, and Israel's NUMBER ONE foreign policy objective should ALWAYS be to maintain and advance the relationship with America.

[Drugmachine]

The F-35 program is now 2 years behind schedule and 100% over budget. It may never see the light of day and will be too expensive for Israel to afford it if it does. Moreover the US had forbidden Israel to embed its own systems in it or use its own missiles as armaments. Israel should abandon the F-35 program and look to Sweden, France or the Eurofighter.

[Lt_Apple]

Finally, admitting the existence of a Zionist lobby shouldn't make one an anti-semitic fiend. There are Arab lobbies and Irish lobbies and Indian lobbies and Chinese lobbies. The existence of such a lobby is neither good nor bad, it simply is and that valuation is very subjective and could change from one day to the next. Pretending that there is no lobby and taking all discussion of such a lobby off the table is misleading and ultimately unwise.

No, but grossly exagerating its influence, trying to equate it with the so-called Jewish Lobby* (or with Jews in general) and/or having double standards when comparing it with other lobbies (I bet that the Unions' lobbying, formal or informal, isn't really criticized by the American public) smells fairly bad to me.

Anyway, I don't really think that lobbying is bad. It's part of living in a democracy, the important thing is that there are laws that favour transparency over who lobbies on which causes, and more importantly which politicians tend to support especific lobbies, and more broadly what do Congressmen vote when discussing laws. But that already exists AFAIK.

*Which is actually the same "Zionist Lobby", though they replace "Zionist" with "Jewish".

[MannoFr]

Lastly, another claim that many of Israel's detractors like to make is that Israel would be a nebech (helpless country) without America. Without fail, they point out the foreign aid which Israel receives from America:



Source
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

However, Israel's GNP (Gross National Product) in 2008 was about 200 billion dollars:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/is.html

This amounts to American aid coming out to about 1.5% of the Israeli GNP. Keep in mind that 1.8 billion of that 3 billion is spent on defense, which has to be purchased in America and no where else. So that leaves about 1.2 billion that goes towards non-defensive spending.

To be sure, I, as well as most Israelis, value the American/Israeli alliance, and believe we still need each other, but let's be honest about two things:

1) America does not have an alliance with Israel because of an "American Zionist Lobby"

2) Israel would not be a nebech without America and America needs Israel, no less than Israel needs America

They don't just point that Israel recieves $3bn, but that also Israel recieves more military aid than other countries (which is not quite exact because they usually just consider help in cash and don't consider, for example, US military bases in other countries, which are obviously payed by the American tax payer. AFAIK, when this is taken into account this then one reaches very different conlusions, though I don't know the exact numbers. For example South Korea, Japan and Germany would recieve much more aid than Israel does).

They will also point out that Israel has recieved more aid over time than other countries ($140bn) but then again I don't know if they consider American bases in other countries in the same time period.

At last I've also seen that some people consider that the 1973 oil crisis was Israel's fault and then the negative economic effects should be considered as aid for Israel (read: At least, lost output because of the recession that came afterwards), but that's very debatable given that Cold War politics had a major role in causing the Yom Kippur War and more importantly, if that's the case then people would have to be intellectually honest and consider, for example, the Vietnam War as aid for South Vietnam or the Gulf War as aid for Kuwait. And more broadly one could consider the Carter Doctrine as aid for Saudi Arabia and so on.

But besides this, curlyg is right, Israel has a lot to lose from losing America's support and in fact Israel would lose more than America if that was the case. Though I think that America would also lose a lot given that Israel probably has nukes, in fact America would lose a lot more than what most people imagine... But even when considering this, Israel has still much more to lose than Americans if the friendship ends.

[S.T.D.]

India built their own nuclear SSN. China is sending people into space. And yet every time Israel wants to work with them to develop some new technology, the US forbids it. I would say the day is coming where Israel should tell the US where to get off. India and China have the ability to be no more or less the 'ally' that the US is to Israel. And unlike the US, both of those countries have their own indigenous insurrections to deal with.

[brraverishhh]

India built their own nuclear SSN. China is sending people into space. And yet every time Israel wants to work with them to develop some new technology, the US forbids it. I would say the day is coming where Israel should tell the US where to get off. India and China have the ability to be no more or less the 'ally' that the US is to Israel. And unlike the US, both of those countries have their own indigenous insurrections to deal with.

That may be true in 20 years time - but not now.

[HedgeYourBets]

No I would say much sooner. American policy is practically driving Israel away.

[doctorzlo]

It doesn't matter. No country is capable of replacing the US as our major backer. No other country has comparable military or economic power, no other country has sufficient influence in the Middle East and neither India nor China seem particularly interested in entangling themselves in the mess that has been created here.

I might also add that both are very sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause and have always supported it at the United Nations.

[Big A]

I would say it is becoming somewhat irrelevant who 'backs' Israel in the long run. And while we all rant and rave and scream about the utter vile hypocrisy that is the UN, who are they? What do they really accomplish? Would an Indian-Chinese-Israeli defense and economic partnership, in addition to Italy, Singapore, Colombia, Brazil sit idly by as Israel, a major partner in their high tech, space, weapons industries as well as a major trading partner was ground into the dirt? I don't think so. In fact I would like to see more and foreign (non Western) students enroll in the advanced university programs in Israel in medicine, materials science, agriculture, engineering and high tech fields.

BTW, right now, today, the talented foreigners are fleeing the US in one of the biggest brain drains in the US ever. The economy is broken, the political climate for foreigners is poisoned and there aren't any jobs for them. It would be wonderful if some of them came to Israel.

[Beerinkol]

Ah..... and the brain drain from Israel is also tremendous. Israel is very much dependent on USA and all those Singapores, Indias and Brazils can very much do without Israel. So they would buy from someone else...

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

I would say it is becoming somewhat irrelevant who 'backs' Israel in the long run. And while we all rant and rave and scream about the utter vile hypocrisy that is the UN, who are they? What do they really accomplish? Would an Indian-Chinese-Israeli defense and economic partnership, in addition to Italy, Singapore, Colombia, Brazil sit idly by as Israel, a major partner in their high tech, space, weapons industries as well as a major trading partner was ground into the dirt? I don't think so. In fact I would like to see more and foreign (non Western) students enroll in the advanced university programs in Israel in medicine, materials science, agriculture, engineering and high tech fields.

BTW, right now, today, the talented foreigners are fleeing the US in one of the biggest brain drains in the US ever. The economy is broken, the political climate for foreigners is poisoned and there aren't any jobs for them. It would be wonderful if some of them came to Israel.

I used the UN as an example to demonstrate the fact that both the Chinese and Indians have long supported Palestinian statehood. And Palestinian statehood does not equal Israel being ground into dust.

Ah..... and the brain drain from Israel is also tremendous. Israel is very much dependent on USA and all those Singapores, Indias and Brazils can very much do without Israel. So they would buy from someone else...

Just as we should not overestimate Israel's power we should not underestimate it. The focus on the Israeli-Palestinian issue has drawn attention away from an analysis of Israeli power in the traditional sense. I briefly browsed a book on exactly this issue today which attempted to draw comparisons between Israel and the "Asian tigers."

Israel is certainly a regional power. Its military strength in the Middle East is unparalleled, its defence industries are among the most advanced in the world and it is one of only 9 states on Earth to possess nuclear weapons. Despite sever shortcoming, it does have a world-class Western-style education system and an advanced economy. Israel's main shortcoming is that it lacks any soft power or influence both in the region and around the world

Israel certainly does have a lot to offer both India and China, particularly in improving their military capabilities. They have the money, and we have the technology. But as I said, this is purely theoretical. At this stage no country has comparable power to the US - we're stuck with them for at least 20 years. Not that I'm against this, I prefer the Americans as allies as opposed to, say, the Chinese, since I actually do believe in democracy and what America represents.

[brraverishhh]

andak01-

With respect, the facts you've provided don't preclude the existence of a Zionist lobby for the following reasons. Admittedly, the title of the thread is a bit misleading. The point of this thread is that America is not hijacked by a zionist lobby. Of course there is a zionist lobby in America, as there are lobbies for just about every ethnic group and nationality in the US, but that American policy is hijacked by this lobby is a myth and propaganda.


- The lobby doesn't have to consist of all Jews. In fact, it doesn't. Bush and Condoleeza Rice for example are Zionists and they aren't in any way Jewish. There is no preclusion of working for the Zionist cause because of one's religion. There is a whole cotery of Evangelicals that describe themselves as Zionist. However, when those who have an axe to grind with Israel (and/or Jews) lament about the "zionist lobby controling America", they are generally NOT referring to Pat Robertson or the 700 club, but to Jewish (or predominately Jewish) groups like AIPAC and such. While these groups are certainly dedicated, they just don't have the clout (in number or money) to hijack American policy in favor of Israel. There are a slither of the lobbying piece of the pie.

- The lobby doesn't have to represent the views of all Jews, only the views of those who put the lobby together who may or may not be Jewish. There are cigarette and gambling lobbies for example which exist despite the fact that they promote unpopular views. Moreover, Jew or non-Jew, many would disagree about exactly what being Zionist means. People can hold vastly different views about politics and still be Zionist. The Zionist lobby doesn't have to and in fact cannot represent them all. This is true, however "zionist lobby" is often a code word used for "Jewish lobby". And, often times, the same culprits who use the code word "zionists lobby" consider anyone a zionist who believes Israel has the right to exist (even if on the land the size of a postage stamp).

- The lobby doesn't require many active members in order to exist. In fact, some Washington lobbies only have one or two lobbyists. Also true, which is why I showed how much of a budget, rather than how many members AIPAC has, for example.

Finally, admitting the existence of a Zionist lobby shouldn't make one an anti-semitic fiend. There are Arab lobbies and Irish lobbies and Indian lobbies and Chinese lobbies. The existence of such a lobby is neither good nor bad, it simply is and that valuation is very subjective and could change from one day to the next. Pretending that there is no lobby and taking all discussion of such a lobby off the table is misleading and ultimately unwise. No, but blowing the influence of the zionist lobby out of proportion to the point of claiming it is hijacking American policy, while ignoring the influence of the other lobbies (Arabs hold no influence with the oil?) smells pretty close to the classic anti-semitism of how "Jews control the world, blah blah blah".