^ I love it.

The person who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy. But when another poster poster brings up the US we get the above nonsense.

Yes, so funny, isn't it... har har harty har har, Alice. I said "hundreds". Can you show hundreds? There is nothing factually incorrect with what I said.

But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront... Hardly Hundreds as large. That's correct. What do you have, a couple dozen maybe? And yes, there are lots of small or storefront mosques. Nothing in that statement is incorrect or a lie. So, until you can present hundreds as large, keep up the silly chuckling.

The person who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy. It wasn't me, it was meelis...oh whatever the name is. Just pay attention, fab. I know you heard the word Muslim and came running in, but try to keep up.

First of all I disagree with Dr T....what you said was not a lie.

( There is a difference between a lie and plain ol' dizzy-blonde ignorance.)

Correction:

"The persons who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy and Meelis... But when DrT. brings up the US we get the above nonsense."

^Ah, poor dear sweet old fabby, I missed you. Where have ya been, petunia?

"The persons who brought up the US in this thread is MidtownGuy and Meelis... But when DrT. brings up the US we get the above nonsense." Yes, because references to the Indian massacre add so much to the conversation on mosques.http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...s/rolleyes.png That's what we had been discussing, mosques... and a reference to a mosque in the US, or a minaret, is much more germane than a reference to the Apache. There is a difference.

I love it when I am right.

I prefer the left.http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ies/tongue.png

And...it takes two to tango..er, I mean..have a pissing match.

"tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney."

^another problem many European men seem to have...insecurity about size.
All those tales about the bigger size of bananas in the South.

....that is until Midtown decides to discuss peni.

Fab wrote: ^ And mine is bigger than yours. Peni? Is that a new pasta? Who, what? Me? Whaddaya mean? Like that?^
Um, I was just following your lead. Like in the thread with Prodi too. Why always bring up male anatomy, fab? It's kind of lowbrow.

okie dokey ...

Since i started this thread I'm requesting that we get back on track -- which can include discussion of the Grand Mosque or other mosques in Europe (but not so much the other stuff).

Cordoba has an incredible mosque -- the Great Mosque of Cordoba -- which dates back to ~ 785 AD.

When I saw it back in the early 90s I had the place to myself (but then I had all sorts of fantastic places to myself, as I was traveling during the midst of the World Cup and wherever I went -- whether in Italy, Spain or Portugal -- everyone seemed to be sitting in front of a television set).

http://www.gardenvisit.com/assets/ma...osque_600x.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...doba_Spain.jpg

More photos at the ArchNet Digital Library - Great Mosque of Cordoba

I have to refute the European mosques are not just hole-in-the-walls, just because someone who visited one place happened to see some that were hole-in-the-walls, and thus concluded to everyone that all of them were, across the entire continent (and you do realise also churches across the region are being converted to mosques too). -And please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones). Yes some may be small that cater to a local street, but they are never far from a Jamme Masjid (Grand Friday mosque). So do, please, visit again.

I have to refute the European mosques are not just hole-in-the-walls, just because someone who visited one place happened to see some that were hole-in-the-walls, and thus concluded to everyone that all of them were, across the entire continent Oh? I concluded ALL of them were, across the continent, did I? I would like you to present that quote where I said that. Otherwise, please avoid putting words in my mouth. Or creating straw men arguments. Thanks.

-And please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones). Yes some may be small that cater to a local street, but they are never far from a Jamme Masjid (Grand Friday mosque). So do, please, visit again. And the number of Muslims proves what?

I agree with this. Anecdotal evidence is limited.

and please, there are 40 million European Muslims (compared to 2.5 million US ones). Who counted them? The US Census doesn't, and the figure is considered very underestimated.

But let's agree that there are several-times the percentage of Muslims in Europe as in the US. You would expect then, that European Muslims would be more politically and socially integrated than those in the US. But that's not the case. The one anomaly in Europe seems to be the UK.

Locations of mosques in La France:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...5577740021.jpghttp://www.cawa.fr/IMG/gif/mosquees_frances.gif

"But let's agree that there are several-times the percentage of Muslims in Europe as in the US. You would expect then, that European Muslims would be more politically and socially integrated than those in the US. But that's not the case."

Muslims are more socially integrated here then you might imagine.

Politically... you are correct... probably not.

Note that the growth of the Muslim populations has been very swift. Immigration in general has grown very fast in just the last 5 years. The impact on society has been surprizing... unexpected.

Europe is dealing with the fears and disorientation that all of this naturally produces. It will go through it's own upheavals, successes and mistakes, just as the US did when the color of it's cities began to change. Although I believe it will not be as violent as it was in the US.

I disagree with DrT when he says: "The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans". That is just silly talk.

Also: it would be interesting to see the reaction in the US if Muslim populations were as high there as they are here.

---

check it out Newsweek article Dispelling the Myth of Eurabia (Eurabia being a neoCon American concept adopted by the European far right):

http://www.newsweek.com/id/206230/page/2

Excerpts:

"For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch. Over the same period, the equivalent figure for Moroccan-born women in the Netherlands dropped from 4.9 to 2.9. Also, fertility rates are edging upward in some Northern European countries, which would offset some of the Muslim growth. Bottom line: given the number of variables, demographers are loath to make predictions about the number of Muslims in Europe in the years to come. "You would almost have to make it up," says Carl Haub, the senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And the idea of a Muslim majority any time soon? "Absolutely absurd."


"And violent zealotry is for the tiny minority: polls repeatedly reaffirm that Muslims overwhelmingly disapprove of terrorism. In some countries, the mood is broadly secular. "The majority of Muslims in France are, in fact, decoupled from their religion. They just blend into an amorphous mass of brown or black people," says Ali Allawi, the former Iraqi defense minister and author of the The Crisis of Islamic Civilization. Jochen Hippler, a German political scientist at the University of Duisburg-Essen, says he has had young Turks come up to him to ask what Islam is all about. "They have lost any connection with the religion of their parents and grandparents," he says. A recent government survey showed that 40 percent of Iranians living in Germany identified themselves as having no religion, as did 23 percent of North Africans. In the Netherlands, the proportion of Muslims who regularly attend the mosque—27 percent—is lower than the proportion of Protestants who go to church."


...and on the 'endangered' Black population of the UK (and when I say 'Black' I mean those not of mixed race):

http://www.afroromance.com/blog/stud...-disappear.htm

January 20th, 2009
Study: Interracial Relationships Causing Black People in the UK to Disappear



“If population projections based on the national census are to be believed, people who describe themselves as ‘mixed race’ could become the largest, single, ethnic minority group in the UK within the next 25 years.” - Laura Smith (The Catalyst Magazine)

MediaTakeOut.com claims having got hold of an article in one of the UK newspapers suggesting that Black folk (Caribbean Black folk in particular) are in danger of disappearing because of the rise in interracial relationships in the UK.

Apparently, 1 in 10 children in the UK come from mixed-race families. Going by the study’s prediction, if current trends (interracial relationships and marriages) continue, some ethnic minorities may cease to exist as mixed-race individuals become more common.

The study also shows that some ethnic groups are more likely to be in interracial relationships. Going by the figures provided by the study, 48% of Black Caribbean men and 34 per cent of Black Caribbean women are in interracial relationships in contrast to those of Pakistani backgrounds (8% men and 6% women).

Do you think we should worry ourselves over some ethnic groups disappearing due to interracial relationships or should we instead look at it from a different perspective – that racism in the UK is disappearing?

True interracial relation is very common in France and UK. (Especially black white but not only)
Now as we still have immigration I don't think that black population will disappear.

By the way, According estimation more than 15% of muslims in France marry with non muslims.
A very high number for a community that is said to highly segegrated and separated of the rest of the society according many medias. http://www.discussworldissues.com/fo...ilies/wink.png
The reality is that the muslims are a way more integrated than it is said.

I also hate how international media speak as they only where white "native" french and north african muslims immigrant in France

First most muslims are not immigrant, I don't even know if I would use the term muslims.
Secular muslims is a better one.

Secondly many white french are son, grand son or great son etc of immigrant especially in city like Marseille. (Nicolas Sarkosy is the son of hungarian immigrant and it is far to be the only exemple)
So I don't see why a white of Marseille would be more native than a muslims, it is not because some people (unfortunely too many people) think in this way that it is true.

Thirdly, we also have many other minorities.