[raskrutkaseo]

*NY has a system of Felony and Midemenour - any robbery/property crime under $500 (£250) is a misdermeanor, however all property crimes are listed in London from mobile phones, ipods to petty thefts.

*NY does not count simple assaults, it only counts aggrevated assaults - assaults that result in serious injury or involve a weapon - London doesn't just count simple assaults, it counts
common assault (no injury), harrasement (no injury), Verbal Assault (no injury), of the violent crimes recorded in the UK, half involve no injury to anyone, whilst the other 50% are mainly simple assaults (black eyes, cuts, bruises etc)

*The definition of many crimes is far broader in the UK, and police targets and recording methods have inflated crime rates.

* The BCS (regarded as the most reliable crime figures by criminologists) has shown a massive decrease in violent crime rates in England and Wales, and this is backed up by hospital casualty figures provided by the NHS and published by the Violence Research Group every two
years.

I think your trying to compare the two societies based on crime statistics but it is a bit difficult. A good portion of the population here wants results from the crimes done (which involve for the most part prison). Prisons are very full in this state. Also crime can be reclassified for a number of reasons. Here are two that I feel and know that are true.

The first being judicial efficiency. Cases cost money and the fact that there are thousands of cases in the system make it very taxing (time and more importantly tax payer money). The court system here wants to be more efficient and the reality is you cannot take people to court for every petty offense so some offenses are reclassified. Even with this the court system in this state is still backed up case wise.

Secondly prisons are crowded. For misdemeanors and the such Rikers Island is used to hold these prisoners. For the most part though this is such a relatively small facility compared to the crimes that happen that some offenders are given probation of 6 months to a year were the record of their misdemeanor will be stricken from the record.

[tefraxKedWere]

the police are putting neighbourhood police teams on to the streets in London and every area is to get them.

The great expansion within the UK Police forces is the recruitment of so-called Police Community Safety Officers (PCSO's), who receive minimum training (I think its 3 weeks), have no powers of arrest, can detain someone for only a maximum of 30 minutes, and are about as useful as a pork chop at a kosher restaurant! They don't even have to pass fitness tests, can enter with lower educational standards, and, here's the real issue, are paid well below what a normal proper cop gets.
Quite frankly they're a cop-out for the authorities, (if you'll excuse the unintended pun), its "policing" on the cheap.
As a Home Office report has said, "there is little evidence that PSCO's have had much impact on anti-social behaviour". I would add, "and crime prevention & detection."

Take a look at this recent example of their "professionalism"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...70&expand=true

[Agedprepdoock]

The great expansion within the UK Police forces is the recruitment of so-called Police Community Safety Officers (PCSO's), who receive minimum training (I think its 3 weeks), have no powers of arrest, can detain someone for only a maximum of 30 minutes, and are about as useful as a pork chop at a kosher restaurant! They don't even have to pass fitness tests, can enter with lower educational standards, and, here's the real issue, are paid well below what a normal proper cop gets.
Quite frankly they're a cop-out for the authorities, (if you'll excuse the unintended pun), its "policing" on the cheap.
As a Home Office report has said, "there is little evidence that PSCO's have had much impact on anti-social behaviour". I would add, "and crime prevention & detection."

Take a look at this recent example of their "professionalism"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...70&expand=true

I don't really want read Daily Mail rubbish, the police in England and Wales are 140,000 strong, which is an all time high. PCSO's aren't police officers, they are support officers and as such they are there to gather intelligence and become the eyes and ears of a community. A security guard doesn't have the same powers as a police officer, but companies employ them to help stop theft and other crimes. By the way PCSO's are quite popular among many of the communities they patrol.

People volunteer to be PCSO's and the pay is not bad, it's a lot more than security guards and shop security are often paid, and a lot more than Special Constables.

PCSO's and Special Constables may yet be merged in to a police reserve, which may be an improvement, and in terms of operational effectiveness I also support a Border Police Force. However it should be noted that while 40% of London's population is born abroad, so is 38% of New York's.

[Mypepraipse]

I think your trying to compare the two societies based on crime statistics but it is a bit difficult. A good portion of the population here wants results from the crimes done (which involve for the most part prison). Prisons are very full in this state. Also crime can be reclassified for a number of reasons. Here are two that I feel and know that are true.

The first being judicial efficiency. Cases cost money and the fact that there are thousands of cases in the system make it very taxing (time and more importantly tax payer money). The court system here wants to be more efficient and the reality is you cannot take people to court for every petty offense so some offenses are reclassified. Even with this the court system in this state is still backed up case wise.

Secondly prisons are crowded. For misdemeanors and the such Rikers Island is used to hold these prisoners. For the most part though this is such a relatively small facility compared to the crimes that happen that some offenders are given probation of 6 months to a year were the record of their misdemeanor will be stricken from the record.

In terms of judicial efficeiency, most British Crime Figures recorded, do not involve a court appearance, they are just recorded crime figures.

Furthermore I have been as critical of the way Britain records trivial offences as crimes (which usually don't involve anything other than a police warning or fine in the post) as I have been of the NYPD for it's under reporting.

Midemeenors don't usually involve prison (it's usually Felonies), as for Rikers Island, I wouldn't say a facility that holds up to 20,000 prisoners is small. The US Prison system is predicted to reach 2,500,000 within the next decade, and currently stands at over 2,100,000. Britain has a fifth of the US population (60m compared 300m) and in order to imprison the same percentage of population would have to jail 500,000 people rather than the 80,000 in England and Wales, 7,000 in Scotland and 1,500 in NI that we currently jail.

[BrianGoldsmith]

Uh...OK...then let me change my statement:

"I love London, but I'll take New York over London any day...or night."

yeah, yeah...I know... New York is not only a city, it's also a state and Manhattan is not really a... whatever...

Listen, all I know is I feel safer there.

Yes and I feel a lot safer in London than the graffati ridden streets of Rome or Naples.

[olivelappers]

Yes and I feel a lot safer in London than the graffati ridden streets of Rome or Naples.

Correction its not graffiti ridden streets of Naples, its the corruption and 'waste management issues'.



You are more likely to be murdered in New York, but more likely to get your wallet pick pocketed in London. Nearly as many people in the UK are murdered in New York.

[worldofwarcraft]

I have found so many nice things for my apartment by the side of the road.

One man's garbage is another man's coffee table.

----

So let's see... we've gone from where-do-you-feel-safer-London-or-New-York, to Naples' "waste management issues".

Do I note just a hint of desperation from you fellows?

------

http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=12296


---

[Blotassefesek]

Whatever way you dress it up a cow-pat is still a cow-pat. The British people want, and deserve proper fully trained Police officers on their streets not cardboard cut-outs like the PCSO's. We pay enough in taxes to have what we used to have, Police Stations that don't close at 5pm or at weekends, Police Officers released from the miles of red tape they have to endure in order to satisfy government targets! Police Officers so cowered by "Political Correctness", (a curse of this Labour government), that they frightened to deal with certain elements of criminal behaviour.

The public have lost faith in our once-respected Police force, (now called Police Service, as though its a branch of social services!). They don't necessarily blame the Police but their political masters who have reduced them to the sorry state they now find themselves in.

PSCO's are a blot on our crime-ridden, yob-dominated streets, they need to be abolished and the money better spent on real bobbies!

_____________

Quote:
PCSO's court appearance is an evident disaster

The alarming consequences of the poor training given to PCSOs is graphically illustrated in this account from a Federation constable member in east London of what happened when one of them had to give evidence in court.

The police officer, who is a member of a Safer Neighbourhoods team, writes:

I arrested a youth for Section 5 POA outside a school. It was a straightforward case involving a very nasty up-and-coming young man. I had a PCSO with me and a teacher came forward as a witness for police.

In court, the teacher gave evidence, followed by myself and there were no problems. But then the PCSO entered the witness box.

What followed can only be described as an embarrassment to the Metropolitan Police and will lead to an appeal against conviction.

The PCSO, when questioned, froze, gave completely the wrong answers, contradicted himself almost every time and was totally overcome by the whole occasion. He fell apart in the box.

In the words of the defence solicitor, we had two different 'police officers' giving two different stories.

The PCSO assisted the defence by disagreeing with his own statement and agreeing with the defence that his own statement was not correct. The statement itself, although a little brief, was correct and had been written by him two hours after the incident with no input (deliberately) from any other officer.

I have since questioned him, along with two other PCSOs and discovered that the only training given for court appearances came in the form of a 20-minute video.

They have not been prepared for giving evidence in any sense of the word. As a result, police officers cannot have faith in PCSOs as witnesses.

The argument that they can give evidence as ordinary members of the public does not stand up to scrutiny.

As the defence solicitor in this case intended, the magistrates and everyone else in the court saw two 'police officers' in the box giving evidence. They expected a professional case to be presented. That this was not done is unacceptable and represents a failure by the organisation.

The whole PCSO team needs immediate training in court procedure, evidence writing and the presentation of evidence in court. Without this training, they cannot be relied upon as professional witnesses.

I believe PCSOs should give evidence in plain clothes until this issue is dealt with. That way, the court will accept that they are not trained police officers and treat them accordingly.

As things stand, I feel there are serious implications for police officers as more cases are lost.

The PCSO in the case I have just described told me that he was very upset by the experience and feels let down by the Metropolitan Police Service.

__________

http://www.pcsos-national.co.uk/mirror.html

[newwebstar]

You are more likely to be murdered in New York, but more likely to get your wallet pick pocketed in London. Nearly as many people in the UK are murdered in New York.

Then I feel much safer in NYC. Murders commited in the city are more likely to be drug related or family abuse. None of which is a situation that I am in. So I am sure glad that I am more likely to keep my life and my wallet in NYC.

[BuyNetHosting]

Whatever way you dress it up a cow-pat is still a cow-pat. The British people want, and deserve proper fully trained Police officers on their streets not cardboard cut-outs like the PCSO's. We pay enough in taxes to have what we used to have, Police Stations that don't close at 5pm or at weekends, Police Officers released from the miles of red tape they have to endure in order to satisfy government targets! Police Officers so cowered by "Political Correctness", (a curse of this Labour government), that they frightened to deal with certain elements of criminal behaviour.

The public have lost faith in our once-respected Police force, (now called Police Service, as though its a branch of social services!). They don't necessarily blame the Police but their political masters who have reduced them to the sorry state they now find themselves in.

PSCO's are a blot on our crime-ridden, yob-dominated streets, they need to be abolished and the money better spent on real bobbies!

Given that there were 80,000 Police Officers in England and Wales in the 1960's and there are now 140,000 Police Officers in England and Wales, plus a further 17,000 in Scotland, I would say the numbers have significantly increased. On top of this there are 2,700 British Transport Police, 12,000 Special Constables and a planned 25,000 PCSO's.

What do you want, we have more per capita police officers than most of America, where cities such as Los Angeles have around 9000 officers and massive budget constraints.

PCSO's need to be given more training and powers, in order to be succesful members of neighbourhood teams, which will include Beat Officers, but your claims regarding police numbers are way off the mark.

[brorialsibers]

You are more likely to be murdered in New York, but more likely to get your wallet pick pocketed in London. Nearly as many people in the UK are murdered in New York.

Nobody knows how many pockets get picked in NY because anything under $500 is swept under the carpet and labelled a misdemeanor rather than as a felony, in order to keep the crime figures low. Most midemenours are not included in NY Crime Figures, and the NYPD Mangement are trying all ways possible to hide and conceal crime figures.

Thr NYPD Union has been up in arms at the concealing and downgrading of crime for years now.

[jamemeveRhype]

So let's see... we've gone from where-do-you-feel-safer-London-or-New-York, to Naples' "waste management issues".

Do I note just a hint of desperation from you fellows?

I don't think Italians have any room to criticise London or NY and I would rather be in London or NY from a health point of view than Naples.

I am not desperate to catch Typhoid or Cholorea.

As for getting your wallet nicked, just go to Rome, it leads the world, get the contents of your wallet nicked while machine gun wielding police stand around do nothing.

[sesIgnose]

Nobody knows how many pockets get picked in NY because anything under $500 is swept under the carpet and labelled a misdemeanor rather than as a felony, in order to keep the crime figures low. Most midemenours are not included in NY Crime Figures, and the NYPD Mangement are trying all ways possible to hide and conceal crime figures.

Thr NYPD Union has been up in arms at the concealing and downgrading of crime for years now.

Nobody knows but the people that are living and visiting here.

There are other forms of information exchange besides the news and internet. If there was something juicy or fear-mongering like pick-pocketing or tourists being mugged, you would hear about it through word-of-mouth most definitely. On top of that, it would most likely be exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

Of the 12 years I have worked in NYC I have yet to hear a single gunshot. Manhattan just is not the same animal it was in the 70's! Most of the crimes you hear about are committed in the non-gentrified areas. Areas of Brooklyn, Wueens and the Bronx that were pointed out in other threads here (see "Questions and Answers" are the hot-spots responsible for the majority of crime, recorded or not, in NYC.

Jaeg, I do not agree with Captain. He tends to get a little over-reactuve and link to sites that are not the best/most trustworthy (even-keeled) sources.

But, you seem to be coming on a little strong with your dumping on NYC...

I think the two are very similar in many ways, having friends from both. I think this crime figure thing is getting very nit-picky. You really just have to look at the hard numbers in relation to comparable sets to get an idea of what is going on. But in addition to that, you always need context.

So whatever.

[gueremaisse]

Nobody knows but the people that are living and visiting here.

There are other forms of information exchange besides the news and internet. If there was something juicy or fear-mongering like pick-pocketing or tourists being mugged, you would hear about it through word-of-mouth most definitely. On top of that, it would most likely be exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

Of the 12 years I have worked in NYC I have yet to hear a single gunshot. Manhattan just is not the same animal it was in the 70's! Most of the crimes you hear about are committed in the non-gentrified areas. Areas of Brooklyn, Wueens and the Bronx that were pointed out in other threads here (see "Questions and Answers" are the hot-spots responsible for the majority of crime, recorded or not, in NYC.

Jaeg, I do not agree with Captain. He tends to get a little over-reactuve and link to sites that are not the best/most trustworthy (even-keeled) sources.

But, you seem to be coming on a little strong with your dumping on NYC...

I think the two are very similar in many ways, having friends from both. I think this crime figure thing is getting very nit-picky. You really just have to look at the hard numbers in relation to comparable sets to get an idea of what is going on. But in addition to that, you always need context.

So whatever.

I am not dumping on NYC, I am questioning the NYPD and Bloombergs Crime Figures, and btw Central London is very safe, most of the crime in London is carried out in the non-gentrified areas. Btw London has even lower gun crime than NY.

London is nearly twice the size in terms of square miles as NYC, the London Police cover a massive area of 609 Square Miles, and gentrification has therefore been a much slower process, however many areas from parts of Hackney through to the Docklands and now areas such as Stratford (the 2012 Olympic Venue) are gradually becoming regenerated and redeveloped.

To be completed by 2012, Stratford City will be a collection of offices, residential and shopping connecting Stratford International and Stratford Regional stations to the Olympic Park.

[rushiddink]

I don't trust statistics relating to crime. Living and working in London as i have for 8 years, i have never been the victim of crime, and i feel safe when out and about during the day or night. I felt safe when i was out and about in NYC a couple of years ago (although my friend had $200 stolen by an illegal taxi driver), and i don't really think this 'my city is better / safer than yours' discussion is particularly constructive (leave nonsense like that to the likes of 'GT').

And Fabrizio, not all us Brits binge drink, please don't generalise because a few teenagers get paraletic when on holiday in Italy.

[datingcrew]

I don't trust statistics relating to crime. Living and working in London as i have for 8 years, i have never been the victim of crime, and i feel safe when out and about during the day or night. I felt safe when i was out and about in NYC a couple of years ago (although my friend had $200 stolen by an illegal taxi driver), and i don't really think this 'my city is better / safer than yours' discussion is particularly constructive (leave nonsense like that to the likes of 'GT').

It's not a case of which city is better, if anything NY City and London share more in common than NY does with Los Angeles or London does with Paris, and the so called NY-LON thread is stronger than ever.

However I do question Bloombergs and his predessors crime statistics as undereporting crime and London/UK police recorded crime statistics for including so much trivial crime that they have become a nonsense. The fact that half of all UK Violent Police Recorded Crime Offences result in no injury to anyone whatsoever, says a lot really.

I am being just as critical of the UK and inparticuarly Londons crime reporting as I am of NY Cities, but for opposite reasons.

[abubycera]

Manhattan isn't a city, it's 22 Square Mile Island, with 1.5 million population,
and is not comparable to the 609 Square Miles of Greater London with a 7.8 million population.

Crime stats drop in NYC is not just Manhattan its the whole city all five boros that decreased

[triardwonvada]

Then I feel much safer in NYC. Murders commited in the city are more likely to be drug related or family abuse. None of which is a situation that I am in. So I am sure glad that I am more likely to keep my life and my wallet in NYC.

This is very true. I am not sure if there are any statistics that can break murders down into certain classifications, but if there are I am sure the murder rate would be significantly smaller than the total.

[Dndjzirw]

Most crime in NY is not random like it is in other major cities like London. Most people who are killed often no there killers here

[shenacatro]

Violent crime in the US:

More than 75 percent of victims know their offender. (U.S. Department of Justice, National Crime Victimization Survey — September 2004)

But is violent crime more random in other countries?