[oronozopiy]

A debate is going on in the Magical Kingdom.

Is society just getting more violent, greedy and rude?

Or is it actually better than what existed in the preceding times, the view of which from the present coated with nostalgia.

There is a real story on those streets, one which may surprise any NYer with romantic views of London. But what is it exactly?

From the Guardian

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/200...s_to_blam.html
Are greedy, rude adults to blame for teen violence?

What do you think of comments made by Sir Alan Steer, a headteacher and the head of a government review of school behaviour, which is due to report on Monday 14 July?
July 11, 2008 12:56 PM

A culture of greed and rudeness among adults is contributing to the epidemic of knife and gun violence among teenagers, according to the government's behaviour adviser.
Sir Alan Steer, a headteacher and the head of a government review of school behaviour, said in an interview with the Guardian, that the recent killings of teenagers in London was "heartbreaking".
"It's connected to a violent sub-culture. But we bear some responsibility. Sometimes as adults we don't model the behaviour we would want youngsters to follow. We live in a greedy culture, we are rude to each other in the street. Children follow that. You wonder what has gone wrong in these children's lives. Of course the kids have a responsibility, but there are questions about what's going on at home. Parents have a huge responsibility. Government doesn't bring up children, parents do."

Some of the comments from ordinary Londoners are astounding.
Just returned from lunch and just witnessed an incident at the seven dials junction near Covent Garden. A Merc driver had to break hard to avoid hitting a teenage BME sauntering across the road. The teenager stood there, fronted the driver , parted his rain mac and clearly visible in his waistband was the handle of a large carving knife. Smiling he turned and continued his journey. Just another lovely tale from our wonderful Capital City!
Being adult and white, the car driver was naturaly to blame for this incident.


and

The article by Sir Alan Steer is correct in many ways. Many of today's ill's have been caused not by one single factor but many other issues that have resulted in the changes we have seen over the last 20 -30 years. For example mamy many more single parent families, hence no stability with the breakdown of the traditional tried and tested 2 parent family.For fear of repetition no role model or father figure menas kids are more likely to seek out there peers and gangs and be prone to going down the wrong road in life. A good stable home with a positive influence might not be the 100% cure but you cannot tell me it will not work a damm sight better than it does now. A lack of resepect for authority ie Police,Schooling,Parents etc. A take away nation wherby many many more people get a takeaway or eat out rather than sit down together as a family round the table discussing each others day. The computer generation of kids who would rather sit in front of a telly or there computer playing often violent games rather than be outside playing football,cricket and other sports hence more and more kids today are overweight. The culture of binge drinking in this country compared within many of our european counterparts. The politically correct rubbish that we have to listen to all the time from politicians. Schools and parents not discipling children. Even what seem like minor issues to most people now are in fact the seeds for the rudeness,arrogance and greed we se so much of today. For example basic politness such as opening doors for people, trafic rage caused by drivers with no thought for other road users. If you go back 20-30 years and compare what has changed it would require a shopping list to highlight the many diferrences. I know I must sound like a grumpy forty something but the huge changes that i have noticed are quite clealry to blame for what is going on today. I think it would be difficult to just suddenly reverse alot of what has transpired, so my idea is. More Police on our streets with the authority to come down hard on youths that are unrully and a nuisance to the community .Schools to be allowed to punish children who misbehave. Parents to be able to chastise there children without any fear of reprisal.Parents to be made to be more accountable for there childrens's behaviour. This could take generations to correct but unless something is done albeit some of the above I fear things will only become worse.

Comments from some of our members who live in the midst of this would be welcomed.

[ananciguinter]

Seriuosly GT, what do you have against Brits? Your pattern of behaviour smacks of racism. Yes racism.

The thing is you take the time to find these articles. Theyre each the same, detracting, valid - but with quite the agenda in their proliferation.

Was your ex British? Are you jealous of London or something? Did you go on holiday and get treated badly?
Or do you have nothing better to do?

Either way do let us know why you put these articles up. We'd love to finally find out.

[irresseni]

Yes I have a problem.

A problem that exists only in your mind.

I read The Guardian every day before I read the Times.

Kindly watch your mouth, and
stay on topic.

There are more than a few people in England at the moment criticizing the present state of society.

What do you think is causing this?

My guess is a lack of education and people jumping to conclusions about others in the community, which leads to a downward spiral of distrust and then malice.

But Im not an expert on this, I just watch from the sidelines. And I read a lot of Londoners' very dire observations such as in the article published in the Guardian yesterday.

[Assauraarguck]

Hmm, so there isnt a pattern to what youre choosing to create as threads, or what you say about the UK?

I can list them if you want.

Everything must be blanketly crap in the UK as your random selections, musings and views seem only to show how crap it is.

My bet's you got flamed somewhere along the line by some Brits. But hey, my two cents. Do correct me if I'm wrong.


Another question, do you not think people can see pattern recognition?

[POMAH_K]

Yes I have a problem.

A problem that exists only in your mind.

YOU ARE IN HIS MIND!!?!?!?!?

I read The Guardian every day before I read the Times. Bad way to start the day. Go to a notoriously opinionated paper before reading one that limits its opinion to, well, THE OPINION PAGE!

Kindly watch your mouth, and
stay on topic. Oh yes, Anglophobia posted by a ranter. I would rather not. I would like to join with those asking you to play nice or leave the sandbox.

WITHOUT pissing in it.

There are more than a few people in England at the moment criticizing the present state of society.

What do you think is causing this? Please show me one place where they aren't.

What do you think causes people to complain? Do you have solutions, or just your radical suppositions that have no real basis in reality or practical implementation?

You are an extremely negative person and should refrain from this. You are not convincing anyone that England has problems. Quite the opposite, many think you do.

My guess is a lack of education and people jumping to conclusions about others in the community, which leads to a downward spiral of distrust and then malice. Mirror?

But Im not an expert on this, I just watch from the sidelines. And I read a lot of Londoners' very dire observations such as in the article published in the Guardian yesterday. Most of what you post is from the Guardian. Much of what you read is from the people that do not like England.

Hell, if they are like you you would think that it was Armageddon right now!

Buffer your comments with a bit from both sides. One who seems to complain constantly about something is usually not in it to try and improve things, but get other people to validate their own hurt feelings over something.

Please, can the hate mongering and be more constructive, will ya?

If you don't know, or refuse to accept the general publics definition of "constructive", just can all of it.

[Alexeric]

Right. So you want to control opinion - institute some balance. Well, the thread isnt about growing roses.

And you want to control what I and others here read? What planet are you from? You should get a job with some third world dictators public affairs team if controlling the opinion of ordinary folks is what you want to do. I and others here make up my own mind. This isnt Wired We Fvcking Well Decide What Your Opinion Should Be Forum last time I checked. You need to settle the hell down.

Why not contribute to the thread rather than trying to be so offensive. Thats not too difficult.

From The Guardian, where thankfully there is a debate going on about society and the present problems facing teenagers in London with knife crime - one contributors opinion.

"Kids are stabbing each other because the have no respect for human life, they don't care about anyone not even themselves and why you ask???
Look around. I leave my house of a morning smile and say good morning to my neighbor in the street and he looks to the ground or people just look at you oddly. Then i get on the tube people push you and shove you, i've seen the elderly fall off the train, pushed by another person getting on, nobody helps them up. I've seen people with bags or babies trying to get up flights of stairs and nobody gives them a hand they just push by and tut than they've made them 0.2 seconds late for work and it goes on. Nobody gives a stuff about anyone else in London and i've never seen it this bad in any other city i've been to. And when people so obviously don't care about anyone else but themselves how on earth to you expect you're kids to grow up??? When you have a city of people who have number 1 on their mind you teach that number 1 is all your kids have to care about.
So what will this seemingly small problem in England leed to...Teen Suicides and suicides in general, depression, loneliness and killings i.e. stabbing.
When i was a teenager i remember it was a massively hard time, you go through a sort of depression hormonally and mentally because everything' changing and you don't believe in you're parents for a while because you're trying to distance yourself i guess and you don't care about yourself actually there are lots you don't like about yourself as a teenager, so if you feel in your head that you don't believe in yourself and you don't believe in your parents and you don't believe in those around you because they definitely don't look happy or care about anyone but themselves and most people don't have god to look to in their lives anymore (even the mention of the word god or Jesus puts a twinge down most peoples spines) so what else is there??? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Nobody to care about you, don't care about myself = depression, anger, frustration, confusion = 1 incident where it all gets to much.
We need to not point the finger at them or the parents we need to point the finger at ourselves and change."

[spaxiaroorbes]

This thread is not an invitation for discussion.

Taken on its own it would probably encourage a reasonable discussion, but taking the history of GT's threads, in my opinion it it intended to offend, and like the many other GT threads it is merely another attack on the English members of WNY.

How ironic that GT cries 'stop the personal attacks' (not to mention when he becomes abusive) when confronted, yet virtually every post he writes is a personal attack on others (when he referred to alonzo as a 'sheepshagger' to me as a 'moron' to mention just two).

How many threads have been started, saying exactly the same thing - England is shit and so are its people? 15? 20? More? For the past 18 months virtually every contribution he has made to WNY says exactly the same thing.

GT, if we offend you to the extent you are unable to have any other thought in your head then i suggest you stop reading English papers, stop watching English TV programmes and ignore the place and its people completely.

This unhealthy obsession says much more about you as an individual than it does us as a nation.

This is offensive spam, and i have reported it as such.

[Kalobbis]

An article from todays Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...jul/15/6/print

One minute most people are charming, the next the human race seems like nature's freak mistake

I stepped out of my gate and a tonne of cyclist sliced past me like a killer missile. I missed death by a whisker. I like to float along in a sunny mood if I possibly can, gazing at trees and flowers, pretending that most people are benign, and nasty things only happen on CSI. I try not to think about stabbings, sadomasochism, gas bills, MPs' expenses and rude, greedy parents, but it's getting harder. And now the forces of darkness seem to be creeping in. Yesterday morning poor Rosemary woke up, tottered into her kitchen and found that robbers had broken in at night. They'd opened the back kitchen window, carefully taken all the plants off the ledge and put them on the ground, then climbed in, stolen Rosemary's purse, money and cards, and left, leaving the front door wide open. She rang at dawn, begging me to deliver cigarettes, which she'd just struggled to give up, because the blasted robbers had taken all her money.
Last week my friend Toad sat in his car for 10 whole minutes, double parked, blocking the high street and enraging passing motorists while he waited patiently for someone to vacate the only parking space for miles around. And then, just as the parked car finally crawled out and Toad prepared to move in, some swanker in a Porsche nipped into the space in front of him. Toad, usually a placid fellow, was so outraged that he got out of his car and walked towards the Porsche in a menacing way, glaring and clutching his car keys fiercely in his right hand. It worked like magic. The Porsche person took fright and buzzed off. But this was not a triumph for Toad. "Where has my peaceful Buddhist self gone?" he wondered. "I've become another horrid Anglo-Saxon dog-eat-dog person."
There were two of those sitting next to my friend Ronald on the plane back from Italy last week - two bullet-headed English chaps who only spoke once each during the flight.
"It'll be just our luck we'll have a stench-wench sitting next to us," said one as they boarded the plane. Then, as it landed, a group of children cheered. "Screaming shit factories," said the other. Sir Alan Steer is right. What a grisly example to set to children. Let's hope these chaps are not parents. Ronnie found this horribly depressing, and he wasn't feeling too perky in the first place.
Then I stepped out of my front gate late last night to get something from the car, and wham, a tonne of cyclist with no lights sliced past me on the pavement like a killer missile. I escaped death by a whisker. I ran inside trembling with fright. I hate all cyclists, all drivers, all bullet-headed, budgerigar-necked foul-mouthed men, all feral youth. I am full of hate. The whole human race stinks. We are nature's freak mistake.
I want everyone found with a knife to be thrown into a concrete pen, knifeless, where they may fight properly, and punch each other senseless. I want medieval public-shame punishments, 100 more gargantuan prisons and the death penalty. Anyway that's what I wanted last night. Then, this morning I squashed an ant at breakfast and felt like a murderer.
My friend Olivia also gazes at trees, can't bear to eat meat and upsets herself over squashed ants; but the same day she's confronting a pig motorist and her language has turned to filth. We don't know whether we're coming or going. One minute we're understanding, civilised and reasonable, and most people seem charming; the next, the world seems full of stinkers and we're foaming with vengeance.
In the evening I ring Rosemary for a progress report and she's standing staring at her kitchen window locks. She feels no better. Her upstairs neighbour has told her that he's worried the robbers will return later and knife her for her pin number. "I don't think they will," says Rosemary, "Do you?" No I don't. Or do I?

[GeorgeEckland]

GT, noone cares about the Guardian.

Please, back off a bit. As was said by others, asking not to be insulted when you insult others is NOT a fair thing to ask.

You are titled to an opinion, but when that opinion HURTS others, that is when the "others" have rights as well. Back off the England Bashing, or, at the very least, try to give it more of a reason other than your bitter hatred of it.

[xtrupoke]

Right. So you want to control opinion - institute some balance. Well, the thread isnt about growing roses.

Then stop throwing around so much manure.

Most people do not find that endearing OR engaging.

And you want to control what I and others here read? Nope. You can read whatever you want. But coming onto a board is similar to coming into someone's house. You do not start talking about the live sex shows you went to in front of the children.

Exaggerated analogy? But of course! You are insulting many brits that come and post here. Several have asked you nicely to stop, and some have been driven away by your vitriol.

Please be more considerate of your community when standing on your soapbox.

What planet are you from? You should get a job with some third world dictators public affairs team if controlling the opinion of ordinary folks is what you want to do. Mars, and I assume you come from Uranus.

Get a job with 3rd world dictators? You try to call me out and you can't even come up with a country name like Rwanda? Controlling your opinion? Yeah, I am big brother.

What I am telling you is STEP OFF.

I and others here make up my own mind. This isnt Wired We Fvcking Well Decide What Your Opinion Should Be Forum last time I checked. You need to settle the hell down. You just swore at me and you are telling me to calm down? You think this is Washington Square and you can yell whatever you want at any passerby? You think that you are somehow protected to complain, libel and insult any person, thing or place you want with no reaction to them?


You are allowed your opinion, as many here have said before. But posting it the way you do with no concern over the feelings of those around you is very selfish.

Grow up.

Why not contribute to the thread rather than trying to be so offensive. Thats not too difficult. You make this too easy. If it is so difficult, why are you failing so miserably?

From The Guardian: CRAP At least most of the stuff you Ctrl-V has been.

So hateful and biased!

[moopierof]

Really that is a lot of off topic nonsense Ninja.

Are you going to contribute to the thread or just keep coming into the room to gas? Stay out if you dont like it, and start a thread on Alaskan Mountain Sheep if that makes you feel better.

[mr.memo]

Ban the word 'chav'

It is deeply offensive to a largely voiceless group and betrays a revealing level of class hatred

All comments ()

• Tom Hampson and Jemima Olchawski
• Tuesday July 15, 2008

It might be hard to say this without sounding priggish or being accused of being rather more politically correct than is healthy, but here goes … We have to stop using the word "chav".

Would we get away with saying "faggot" on the BBC? No – there are very few circumstances where that would be acceptable. Would the Guardian print the word "pikey"? Well they have done five times this year (three times were earnest discussions about the word's racism, and the other two were, well, a bit racist). Can you use the word "gay" as a general derogative (as in "those trainers are really gay") on Radio 1? Well yes, it turns out that you can, according to the BBC Trust. Could we use the n-word in the Fabian Review? Well probably not, especially when making the point that there is rightly a hierarchy of offensiveness. Some uses of some words fall below the threshold of acceptability and some are definitely above it.

"Chav" is way above that threshold. It is deeply offensive to a largely voiceless group and – especially when used in normal middle-class conversation or on national TV – it betrays a deep and revealing level of class hatred.
The phenomenon of the word has grown over the last five years. Initially it was purely a term of abuse. (You only have to visit the website chavscum.com to see this – have a look at it and be appalled). But more recently it has become rather more insidious than that because it is so much more widely used. We have heard it increasingly used in conversation over the last year, invariably to casually describe people "not like us" and very often used by people who are otherwise rather progressive in their politics.
You cannot consider yourself of the left and use the word. It is sneering and patronising and – perhaps most dangerous – it is distancing, turning the "chav" into the kind of feral beast that exists only in tabloid headlines. It is worse than other forms of snobbery because it so clearly links poverty and being working class to criminality and fecklessness. The middle classes have always used language to distinguish themselves from those a few rungs below them on the ladder – we all know their old serviette/napkin, lounge/living room, settee/sofa tricks. But this is something new. This is middle class hatred of the white working class, pure and simple.

It is easy to dismiss this as "political correctness gone mad". But the words we use matter. The common use of the word chav creates a sense that this type of discrimination and stereotyping is acceptable and legitimate. Let's not replace the racist or bigoted language of the past with a new set of words that are just as hateful.
Part of the problem is about voice. When Little Britain, Graham Norton, and Jonathan Ross are given the BBC's green light to portray gay people in ways that many gay people are uncomfortable with, there is at least Stonewall to defend them (see their excellent Tuned Out report from last year). But who does the white working class have? You might think they would at least have the progressive left, but it would seem not.

The BBC should specify the word in its guidelines for programme makers and take class discrimination seriously. The new Commission for Equality and Human Rights should show that they understand class discrimination is an issue that can have effects as detrimental as racial or gender bias.

But more importantly, we must stop using it ourselves. Laws and regulation are important ways to protect the vulnerable and can effect social change but often the most dramatic social change happens as people gradually convince each other their behaviour is wrong, or it becomes socially embarrassing. Drink driving used to be the norm despite the law, now most people would be ashamed to admit to their friends they had driven home at the end of a night in the pub. It's that same social pressure that meant there was uproar at language perceived as racist in the Celebrity Big Brother House – a sense that we just don't speak that way to each other. From now on – embarrassingly PC though it may seem – we shall audibly "tut tut" and wince whenever we hear the word used. You should too.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ality.language

One contributer writes:

Banning words... That's sensible. NO, can't see how that could end badly.

[steansathtpos]

The idea of imposing an indiscriminate curfew on kids is grotesque

'I have a distasteful vision of the police riding around the streets of English towns and cities rounding up youngsters'

All comments ()



In the Youth Crime Action Plan, published today by the government, the bit I find the most worrying is not one of the main ones. It's the proposed imposition of curfews, banning children from being outside past a certain time, and punishing parents if they are. The word curfew has, for me, sinister and ominous connotations. Silent, dark streets; prowling soldiers with guns at the ready; the occasional click-clack of hurried footsteps as a hunched figure hurries to safety; a shot is fired, someone is captured - or lies dead. Now that's what I call a curfew.


Its original meaning, from the French, had to do with a bell being sounded, telling residents to extinguish their fires and retire to bed. Think of "The curfew tolls the knell of parting day" in Gray's Elegy. The word grew to mean an order restricting people to their homes at times of unrest. Most recently, it has become a means of controlling troublesome teenagers. Quite apart from my distress at seeing such an interesting and evocative word applied to children who swear, puke and fight, I find the prospect of kids' curfews objectionable.



I have a distasteful vision of the police riding around the streets of English towns and cities rounding up youngsters who have missed the 9 o'clock deadline. Their parents are then interrogated and asked to explain why they hadn't kept their child at home. Remember, these are kids who have done nothing wrong. But if the parental answers don't satisfy the police, they can be forced to undergo parenting classes and even, it seems, be themselves served with asbos. Would "My son went to see a friend. I knew where he was. He's a responsible child" be enough to deflect action? Perhaps not.


The use of the indiscriminate curfew - catching wrongdoers and innocent alike - is a stark admission of failure. We have failed to prevent drugs and alcohol getting to a small minority of the young; parents and schools have failed to instil decent values into a small minority. So why don't we just bang up all children in their own homes; then they can't get up to any mischief, even the huge majority who weren't doing anything wrong in the first place.

From the Guardian's Comment is Free

[fajerdoksdsaaker]

Petulant defamation.

Are you going to contribute to the thread or blah blah blah? Stay out if you dont like ME, and start a thread on how many people cannot tolerate my inflamatory insulting posts if that makes me get the message and stop with the insults.

Fixed.

[cholleyhomeob]

Mission accomplished.

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[LypeReexy]

Sorry Chavs (neds in Scotland) live up to the stereotype every time, you can tell a mile away, so sorry stop being twats and we will stop calling you chavs.

[PriernPayorse]

Chavs...neds...twats. Now I'm really confused.

[Repwailia]

This is a bus trip somewhere in England

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1j0n4-...eature=related

These are chavs

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=YmwxXy...eature=related

Theres another thread on chavs somewhere.

But it is remarkable that the English government is considering a curfew for the youth of England.

[Darlmtgq]

Mission accomplished.

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Gregory Tenenbaum This message is hidden because Gregory Tenenbaum is on your ignore list.

Welcome to the club

[DurryVony]

A very insightful post on the Guardian Newspaper:

<i>Unfortunately it seems that almost all newspaper columnists in this country are from a 'middle-class' (read 7% of people who are privately educated,