[acissombiapse]

Which is why it would be surprising for them to identify with Addis Abeba before Mogadishu. You misread my comment.

Okay, I see what you were saying.

Ethiopia has had some sort of relations or presence in the region since Aksum is what I'm saying. Of course influence was two ways, no one said otherwise. But there was basically no contact with Southern Somalia until the modern period.

You can use the Ethiopian name for convenience but it would not be accurate if you stated the Ethiopian state had existed since the Aksumite time period or any time prior to the late 19th century AD. That's what I'm trying to get at.

I wasn't referring to Sahle Maryam in particular, but the efforts that began with the reign of Sahle Selassie. Anyway, of course there were other rises, but I was referring to a specific one. The trade route I'm talking about was always coming back to the forefront when Shewa was powerful.

What was Shewa's name before the expanding oromos conquered it and named it Shewa?

[Scfdglkn]

To expand on the point about Italian v. British colonial influence on Somalia, I think it's important to note that the British left Somaliland to its own devices whereas Italy attempted to turn Southern Somalia into a prize colony.
The British take on their role in Somalia: "We will only seek to minimize conflict in our area, we will not invest or capitalize from the occupation. The only thing worthwhile about our occupation is its strategic location, so we will be hands off except when it comes to conflict avoidance and resolution."
The Italians: "We will invest a lot in our area of Somalia, we will modernize and begin development in the urban areas such as Mogadishu, we will displace a lot of people and have them work in the city to disrupt and fundamentally alter traditional lifestyles, in an ultimate attempt to terraform it for our purposes."
[Southern Somalis spoke great Italian, they know their opera, but they are now in complete anarchy.]

So, Somaliland was never heavily developed or influenced by European colonialism, it was the least influenced of any area in the whole of the Horn and very isolated from European influences but is now the most democratic place in the Horn of Africa. What does that say?
What's worse even for S. Somalia than a state of anarchy is now fundamentalist Islam is gaining a foothold even though the practices and basic concept of such a movement is completely un-Somali. Unfortunately, after existing in profound chaos for an extended period of time, any faction that offers security, structure, and law is preferable no matter how rigid and unnatural to the Somali cultural tradition it might be.

[Nubtoubrem]

So is Somaliland actually Independent or is it attempting to secede ?

Because i haven't seen anything by that name on any map

Somaliland gained independence from Great Britain on June 26, 1960 (today's the 50th anniversary btw)...Somalia gained its independence from Italy on July 1st 1960. Therefore, Somaliland was a sovereign and independent country for 5 days. Besides, Somaliland and Somalia mean the same thing, "land of the Somalis", and in my mind, Somaliland was always the real deal, while Somalia is our mutated, ugly clone in the south.

It was the Somaliland based SYL (Somali Youth League) who even proposed the eventual union of the British, Italian (and eventually French and Ethiopian) Somalilands into a united "Somalia" as early as the 1950s. Back then, the British were promoting and cultivating self determination because they found it cute and adorable that their colonial subjects are getting all grown up and doing grown up things...this was the case in other British colonies, like Nigeria and India. Post World War 2 were good times to be a British colony.

The South was also getting groomed, but by the un trusteeship for a period of 10 years, which was working with Italy. The Italians, understandably were half assed about getting the Somalis in the south ready for self determination. Afterall, that the south became a un trusteeship was because Italy was stripped of its colonial possessions in WW2.

Somaliland's relationship with Ethiopia is purely strategic, and it's in Somaliland's economic and political benefit to maintain a good relationship with the largest country in the region. Ethiopia has it's own reasons for not recognizing Somaliland's independence, we don't need it, nor do we need or seek Africa or the Arab world's recognition either, since they mostly oppose it for their own reasons. America and the eu is another matter, and the ones' opinion that do matter.

Last edit...Ezana, you're mistaken if you think that Somaliland's sphere of influence was Ethiopian. That is ludicrous, and as Boosted J mentioned, Somalis expanded from north to the south. Most of the original Qadiriyya sufi saints buried in southern Somalia, and in Kelaafo, Ethiopia were from modern day Somaliland. Most cultural influences in the south have a northern origin anyway, from poetry/oral literature, to music...in the heyday of Somali music, the best singers and musicians in Mogadishu were from the North. To this day when you listen to Somali news broadcasted from Mogadishu, or the BBC Somali, it's with a standard north Somali accent.

[Senasivar]

Ethiopia has had some sort of relations or presence in the region since Aksum is what I'm saying. Of course influence was two ways, no one said otherwise. But there was basically no contact with Southern Somalia until the modern period.

Q: Ethiopia = Tigray - Amhara regions? Are you aware of the fact that Sheikh Hussein the most prominent saint amongst Ethiopian muslims came from Merka, Southern Somalia?, or the multiple caravans that left medieval Southeast-Ethiopia for the ports in Southern Somalia?

To expand on the point about Italian v. British colonial influence on Somalia, I think it's important to note that the British left Somaliland to its own devices whereas Italy attempted to turn Southern Somalia into a prize colony.
The British take on their role in Somalia: "We will only seek to minimize conflict in our area, we will not invest or capitalize from the occupation. The only thing worthwhile about our occupation is its strategic location, so we will be hands off except when it comes to conflict avoidance and resolution."
The Italians: "We will invest a lot in our area of Somalia, we will modernize and begin development in the urban areas such as Mogadishu, we will displace a lot of people and have them work in the city to disrupt and fundamentally alter traditional lifestyles, in an ultimate attempt to terraform it for our purposes."

Nonsense, the word 'colonization' can't even be used to describe Somalia's brief period of foreign occupation:

"The Italians never succeeded in their attempted role of colonial masters. They were sometimes perceived as allies (by the Geledi in their fight with the Biimaal) and sometimes as enemies (by Maxamad Cabdille Xasan and his Dervishes), but rarely were they seen as masters. The love-hate relationship, so often present between colonized and colonizer, seemed not to occur in the Somali case. -
Politics, language, and thought: the Somali experience - Page 68

Somaliland gained independence from Great Britain on June 26, 1960 (today's the 50th anniversary btw)...Somalia gained its independence from Italy on July 1st 1960. Therefore, Somaliland was a sovereign and independent country for 5 days.

There was no such thing as an independent ''Somaliland'' state, it had no distinct flag(actually the Somali blue flag was first hosted there), no parliament etc. This is as absurd as saying one half of Morocco was an independent state because it had to wait for the other half to receive it's independence. Northern Somali representatives had already agreed to a union even before the protectorate achieved independence:

In February 1960 a Legislative council was elected by Universal adult male suffrage. On April 6 this council unaninamously passed a resolution stating its desires to recieve independence before 1 july, so that the country could be united with Somalia when it became independent -Encyclopedia Americana pg 251

As for the current entity of Somaliland and it's wish to secede, that's a tricky situation considering 40% of the territory claimed by Riyaale's government are die-hard Unionists, not to forget how the Awdal region is currently governed by it's own council and does not feel the need to secede from Somalia, but instead waits for stability to return, forcing them into a seccession could prolong or ignite a war in a relatively peaceful part of the country.

Last edit...Ezana, you're mistaken if you think that Somaliland's sphere of influence was Ethiopian. That is ludicrous, and as Boosted J mentioned, Somalis expanded from north to the south. And from the South to the North, this was not a one-time phenomena.

Most of the original Qadiriyya sufi saints buried in southern Somalia, and in Kelaafo, Ethiopia were from modern day Somaliland. Most cultural influences in the south have a northern origin anyway, from poetry/oral literature, to music...in the heyday of Somali music, the best singers and musicians in Mogadishu were from the North. To this day when you listen to Somali news broadcasted from Mogadishu, or the BBC Somali, it's with a standard north Somali accent. Indeed Hargeisa Radio was a pioneer, as was the Hargeisa theatre, yet why do some of our folk from that part of the region pretend they had no influence in the South, when your supremacist post is showing the opposite?

[Tveabuti]

\


Nonsense, the word 'colonization' can't even be used to describe Somalia's brief period of foreign occupation:

"The Italians never succeeded in their attempted role of colonial masters. They were sometimes perceived as allies (by the Geledi in their fight with the Biimaal) and sometimes as enemies (by Maxamad Cabdille Xasan and his Dervishes), but rarely were they seen as masters. The love-hate relationship, so often present between colonized and colonizer, seemed not to occur in the Somali case. -
Politics, language, and thought: the Somali experience - Page 68

I was careful to say "attempt" at colonization due to the fact that these semantics are debatable. You should re-read my post.

[Zesavenue]

Interesting interview Ferenj
About the proposal from that qatari based analyst Afyari Elmi for Hargeisa to be the capital instead of Mogadishu, what do you say about that Sanjub? Do you think there are a lot of other somalis who would be willing to entertain this idea?

That is a myopic idea, since Hargeisa, Garowe and Bosaso have done well precisely because they were not the Capital of Somalia. If any of them were, then all of the arm shipments from neighbouring & distant countries in the last two decades, the CIA American dollar stuffed suitcases, the illegal invasions, former generals and commanders of the Somali military turned warlords would be tearing apart those cities instead of Mogadishu. There is nothing wrong with that city, it was the ''Pearl of the Indian Ocean'' at its prime, for most of its thousand year long history it flourished. Similarly there is nothing wrong with the ordinary people living there, they are simply being held hostage by corrupt religious and non religious warlords seeking power, add to this powerful geopolitical forces, and you have a city on fire.

[TZids16I]

Q: Ethiopia = Tigray - Amhara regions? Are you aware of the fact that Sheikh Hussein the most prominent saint amongst Ethiopian muslims came from Merka, Southern Somalia?, or the multiple caravans that left medieval Southeast-Ethiopia for the ports in Southern Somalia?



Nonsense, the word 'colonization' can't even be used to describe Somalia's brief period of foreign occupation:

"The Italians never succeeded in their attempted role of colonial masters. They were sometimes perceived as allies (by the Geledi in their fight with the Biimaal) and sometimes as enemies (by Maxamad Cabdille Xasan and his Dervishes), but rarely were they seen as masters. The love-hate relationship, so often present between colonized and colonizer, seemed not to occur in the Somali case. -
Politics, language, and thought: the Somali experience - Page 68



There was no such thing as an independent ''Somaliland'' state, it had no distinct flag(actually the Somali blue flag was first hosted there), no parliament etc. This is as absurd as saying one half of Morocco was an independent state because it had to wait for the other half to receive it's independence. Northern Somali representatives had already agreed to a union even before the protectorate achieved independence:

In February 1960 a Legislative council was elected by Universal adult male suffrage. On April 6 this council unaninamously passed a resolution stating its desires to recieve independence before 1 july, so that the country could be united with Somalia when it became independent -Encyclopedia Americana pg 251

As for the current entity of Somaliland and it's wish to secede, that's a tricky situation considering 40% of the territory claimed by Riyaale's government are die-hard Unionists, not to forget how the Awdal region is currently governed by it's own council and does not feel the need to secede from Somalia, but instead waits for stability to return, forcing them into a seccession could prolong or ignite a war in a relatively peaceful part of the country.



And from the South to the North, this was not a one-time phenomena.



Indeed Hargeisa Radio was a pioneer, as was the Hargeisa theatre, yet why do some of our folk from that part of the region pretend they had no influence in the South, when your supremacist post is showing the opposite?

I never denied that cultural influences went both ways.

I already stated that union with the south was an idea that was coined in Northern Somalia first. Back then a united Somalia was so desirable that people were willing to concede everything to their southern neighbours. Italian was made an official language, although not a single person from former British Somaliland spoke it, which meant most of the government and civilian posts went to folks from the south. Mogadishu was chosen as a capital without any questions raised, academic instituitions were all placed in the south, without any questions being raised.

I realize that Somaliland did not have it's own flag...afterall, the Blue flag of Somalia was invented by a man from Somaliland. Why would they have their own flag, parliament or anything along that matter when they were pushing for unification with the south? My point was never to deny this, rather, my point is that this pan-Somalism was misguided and came from an altruistic hope for things to come. However the following decades and in particular the last years of Siad Barre's regime changed all that forever.

During the Second World War, Britain occupied Italian Somaliland and administered the territory from 1941 to 1950. It was during this period (1943) that the Somali Youth League (SYL) was formed. The SYL succeeded in uniting all Somali clans under its flag and led the country to independence. Faced with growing Italian political pressure inimical to continued British tenure and to Somali aspirations for independence, the Somalis and the British came to see each other as allies. The situation prompted British colonial officials to encourage the Somalis to organize politically; the result was the first modern Somali political party, the Somali Youth Club (SYC), established in Mogadishu in 1943.
The Somali Youth League monument in Mogadishu.

To empower the new party, the better educated police and civil servants were permitted to join it. In 1947, it renamed itself the Somali Youth League (SYL) and began to open offices not only in Italian and British Somaliland, but also in the Ogaden and in the Northern Frontier District (NFD). The SYL's stated objectives were to unify all Somali territories, including the NFD and the Ogaden; to create opportunities for universal modern education; to develop the Somali language by a standard national orthography; to safeguard Somali interests; and to oppose the restoration of Italian rule. SYL policy banned clannishness so that the thirteen founding members, although representing four of Somalia's five major clans, refused to disclose their clan affiliations. Although the SYL enjoyed considerable popular support from northerners, the principal parties in British Somaliland were the Somali National League (SNL), mainly associated with the Isaaq clan, and the United Somali Party (USP), which had the support of the Dir (Gadabuursi and Issa) and Darod (Dulbahante and Warsangali) clans.

In 1945, the Potsdam conference was held, where it was decided not to return Italian Somaliland to Italy.[1] The United Nations opted instead in November 1949 to grant Italy trusteeship of Italian Somaliland, but only under close supervision and on the condition -- first proposed by the SYL and other nascent Somali political organizations, such as Marehan Union Party, Hizbia Digil Mirifle Somali (HDMS) (which later became Hizbia Dastur Mustaqbal Somali) and the SNL, that were then agitating for independence -- that Somalia achieve independence within ten years.[2][3]

British Somaliland remained a protectorate of Britain until June 26, 1960, when it became independent. The former Italian Somaliland followed suit five days later.[4] On July 1, 1960, the two territories united to form the Somali Republic, albeit within boundaries drawn up by Italy and Britain.[5][6][7] A government was formed by Abdullahi Issa with Aden Abdullah Osman Daar as President,[8][9][10] and Abdirashid Ali Shermarke as Prime Minister, later to become President (from 1967-1969). On July 20, 1961 and through a popular referendum, the Somali people ratified a new constitution, which was first drafted in 1960.[11]
Lastly, that the non-Isaaq groups in Somaliland are obviously not as enthusiastic about secession to me, is proof of their clannish mindsets ("we will rather wait and stick it out, who knows maybe shit will get better in the south, although we already have a peaceful functioning country right now in Somaliland") and interests more than anything. I'm just glad that for the most part, Somaliland did not act like the paranoid and warmongering nation it could have been and instead, let them be.

Riyale's politics dont matter that much to me, the moment he attempts to hint at unionist tendencies, he will be kicked to the curb, if even after he wins the elections.

[Johnny]

I never denied that cultural influences went both ways.

I already stated that union with the south was an idea that was coined in Northern Somalia first.

Geographically sure, since if i travelled to Canada and you and me discussed a joint-project to be built in Hargeisa, one could make the claim that this idea was coined in Canada, regardless of our personal birthplaces, similarly those who coined that idea for a union came from various sections of our people that one simply can not trace back to a single specific region.

Back then a united Somalia was so desirable that people were willing to concede everything to their southern neighbours. There was no such thing as their 'Southern neighbours' for a vast swathe of cosmopolitan Mogadishu's residents came from modern Puntland and Somaliland, today there are hundreds of thousands still waiting for the storm raging there to calm down so they can return to claim their properties and possessions.

Italian was made an official language, although not a single person from former British Somaliland spoke it, which meant most of the government and civilian posts went to folks from the south. Mogadishu was chosen as a capital without any questions raised, academic instituitions were all placed in the south, without any questions being raised. The disparity in government posts was slowly being balanced out, remember that Prime minister Egal a politician from the North was practically running the show in the late 70s, or how a Northerner in the military, Captain Khaawe was one of the main protagonists of the bloodless coup. Hargeisa was made the second capital of our country, many trade schools/cultural institutions were built there, the largest landing strip for planes in East Africa was built in Berbera, and its small port was turned into a deepsea port. The main base of the Somali Airforce was positioned there. Let's be honest with ourselves, the Northwest is definitely not a region that could claim it's being neglected, no the real contenders would be the Central and Northeast regions.

I realize that Somaliland did not have it's own flag...afterall, the Blue flag of Somalia was invented by a man from Somaliland. Why would they have their own flag, parliament or anything along that matter when they were pushing for unification with the south? My point was never to deny this, rather, my point is that this pan-Somalism was misguided and came from an altruistic hope for things to come. However the following decades and in particular the last years of Siad Barre's regime changed all that forever. There was nothing misguided about Pan-Somalism, it was and is a very noble concept, since when is wishing self-determination for your kinsmen 'misguided'? Siad Barre was one man, he can never taint this concept with his unfortunate policies in the later period of his rule. Don't forget that Pan-Somalism is the reason why those Somali fighter jets landed in the Red Sea or foreign countries when they were ordered to bomb their own people by Barre, why focus on one man? If so why then turn a blind eye to one of his righthand men the current President of Somaliland; Riyaale, a former powerful NSS officer in Berbera, (be sure to read Rukiya Omaar's article on him) yet his actions seem to have been forgotten?

Lastly, that the non-Isaaq groups in Somaliland are obviously not as enthusiastic about secession to me, is proof of their clannish mindsets ("we will rather wait and stick it out, who knows maybe shit will get better in the south, although we already have a peaceful functioning country right now in Somaliland") and interests more than anything. I'm just glad that for the most part, Somaliland did not act like the paranoid and warmongering nation it could have been and instead, let them be. That's interesting, so you attribute to them the disease of having 'clannish mindsets' when it comes to their wish to remain part of a state with people from a myriad of different clans from their own, yet don't feel the same when it comes to the Hargeisa triangle?

[Saad Khan]

I get the feeling a lot of bitterness towards Somaliland has to do with not wanting to take accountability for why other regions of Somalia are in the state that they are in when compared to the state of affairs in Somaliland. There are of course legitimate reasons to resent the idea of breaking Somalia up, but if a people choose to determine their own destiny and have proven that they can maintain a certain level of law and order in an otherwise lawless and chaotic region, don't they deserve some credit??? Even if you don't agree with secession, can't you at least acknowledge that they are doing SOMETHING right?
Obviously there will be minority groups who don't feel like the secession of Somaliland would be in their best interests, but as of now living in an unrecognized area of Somalia that is self-governing allows them a measure of security and democracy and the ability to hope for political representation as opposed to in the south where you choose between Taliban Africa and Apocalypse Now.

[Roker]

I get the feeling a lot of bitterness towards Somaliland has to do with not wanting to take accountability for why other regions of Somalia are in the state that they are in when compared to the state of affairs in Somaliland.

Which other regions of Somalia? You make it sound as if only SL is in a calm state. The places on fire are Moqdishu, Jowhar, Baydoa, Kismayo, Merka etc and their vicinity. The rest of the country is peacefull, from Hobyo to Las-Anod, Eyl to Las-qorey, all are peacefull. Nothing spectacular about SL, what is their to be impressed about, coz i don't see it? I get impressed by economically booming places like Angola, Khartoum, Dubai or Abuja, not SL. What exist there that the rest of Somalia lacks?
The only reason they get space on international news agencies like CNN or Al-jazeera is because of their mission on secession and the focus it attracks due to the noise in Mog, not because they've achieved anything granduer. I always laugh when i hear Issaaq kids talk about "the best kept secret in africa", Slick willy also mentioned this secret, i would like to hear more about this secret, secret stuff? Is it an underground world? Have you colonized the outer space? If Hargeisa and Berbera are the so-called "secret of africa" then i fail to see the extraordinary quality of this secret. Like i said SL is at the same level as rest of Somalia nothing out of the ordinary. Even Gal-gadud has better economic activities than SL, i for sure aint impressed, nothing spectacular at all.

[Justlovemy]

Which other regions of Somalia? You make it sound as if only SL is in a calm state. The places on fire are Moqdishu, Jowhar, Baydoa, Kismayo, Merka etc and their vicinity. The rest of the country is peacefull, from Hobyo to Las-Anod, Eyl to Las-qorey, all are peacefull. Nothing spectacular about SL, what is their to be impressed about, coz i don't see it? I get impressed by economically booming places like Angola, Khartoum, Dubai or Abuja, not SL. What exist there that the rest of Somalia lacks?
The only reason they get space on international news agencies like CNN or Al-jazeera is because of their mission on secession and the focus it attracks due to the noise in Mog, not because they've achieved anything granduer. I always laugh when i hear Issaaq kids talk about "the best kept secret in africa", Slick willy also mentioned this secret, i would like to hear more about this secret, secret stuff? Is it an underground world? Have you colonized the outer space? If Hargeisa and Berbera are the so-called "secret of africa" then i fail to see the extraordinary quality of this secret. Like i said SL is at the same level as rest of Somalia nothing out of the ordinary. Even Gal-gadud has better economic activities than SL, i for sure aint impressed, nothing spectacular at all.

Wow this is unusual, someone downplaying the successes of a place and people they disagree with. Interesting.
And LOL, I don't think people from outside Somaliland should mock Somaliland's relative peace and stability as "not impressive" until they can pull themselves and their region out of a Mad Max movie.
"Order? Overrated tbh. Peace? Give me an oil tanker to hijack anyday...this shit aint no Dubai, knowhamsayin? It aint building no hotels in the desert out of gold and platinum so whatever"
lol I didn't say Somaliland was like Japan or some shit.

[Karpattaisp]

Secessions never a good thing. They are splitting the somalis up. I support Sanjub in this shit, just look at Bosnia/Croatia it will be hell in some years when one of the state starts to turn against their kinsmen in an attempt to conquer more lands.

[Usesdiums]

^Honestly, I'm not even saying I support the idea of secession as much as I'm saying it's ridiculous to downplay the contrast between the North and South and not give credit where credit is due.

[Saduyre9de]

^Honestly, I'm not even saying I support the idea of secession as much as I'm saying it's ridiculous to downplay the contrast between the North and South and not give credit where credit is due.

Well but you gotta understand Sanjub here, they want to split the country even more that's not the solution. Now is the time to unite and drive the islamists out. They have to ally themselves with the Ethios and just swallow their pride.

Anyway I can agree that they have 'boomed' economically somewhat but as he said it ain't no ' african secret '

[xT0U3UGh]

Well but you gotta understand Sanjub here, they want to split the country even more that's not the solution. Now is the time to unite and drive the islamists out. They have to ally themselves with the Ethios and just swallow their pride.

Anyway I can agree that they have 'boomed' economically somewhat but as he said it ain't no ' african secret '

It's more than Mogadishu can accomplish apparently, with that mindset, so something should be said for that.
I would prefer that they unite and drive the Islamists out, but I can understand why certain...histories...make Northerners jaded towards Southerners to the point where they are like "fuck y'all, fix your own shithole, and hey thanks for that whole Isaaq genocide thing, really enjoyed that...have fun with the Taliban "

[VarenHokalos]

It's all about politics. I can bet my left ball that the US have some interest in the countrys split up. Now that Ethiopia is getting somewhat more important and self reliant due to their high ecoonomical growth.

[TSVIDeo]

^Honestly, I'm not even saying I support the idea of secession as much as I'm saying it's ridiculous to downplay the contrast between the North and South and not give credit where credit is due.

This is not about giving or denying credit, one of my brother's settled down in Hargeisa, if this region does well, i'm thoroughly satisfied, no sinister bone here. The problem is that your personal bias causes you to generalise and make absurd sensationalist statements. First the Somaliland entity doesn't constitute the entire North of Somalia, they are positioned in the Northwest, there is also the Northeast(Puntland), and the central regions(Galmadug etc) that are relatively peaceful, The South itself also can't be generalised there are major cities like Merka, Barawa etc that are not conflict zones. The area of instability is majoritely concentrated in Mogadishu itself:

marka-somalia.jpgBosasoCity.jpgDSC04838.jpgMp.JPGzGalkacyo.jpgBarawe161109.jpg


It's more than Mogadishu can accomplish apparently, with that mindset, so something should be said for that. I would prefer that they unite and drive the Islamists out, I will reply to you with what i have said once to Sanjub in a PM:

If a house substitutes symbolically as the city of Mogadishu, and you have five doctors, three students, six traders, four politicians, a married couple with a child, and lastly two gunmen living there. It doesn't matter how much those five doctors would like to medically speaking take care of the residents in the house, it doesn't matter how badly those students would like to study, it doesn't matter how competitively those traders would like to trade, it doesn't matter how many laws those politicians enforce, and it doesn't matter that the married couple with a child would like to see their kid grow up in a safe environment, all of their wishes has been rendered obsolete because two maniacs with a gun have hijacked their house and their destinies. Add to this the almost inexhaustible supply of ammo from foreign sources for these gunmen and the aforementioned ordinary people are stuck in a neverending labyrinth.

They united and drove the Warlords out four years ago, then a paranoid Superpower called our moderates 'fanatics' and allowed the actual nutcases to come to forefront, what if they now unite again and drive out these demons, what is to say some other stupid reason won't be used to intervene in the South(Neo-Communism?, Pro-Sinism?), fact is that region would calm by itself if there wasn't all this meddling, the type of meddling that is non-existant in the Northwest and the Northeast.

but I can understand why certain...histories...make Northerners jaded towards Southerners to the point where they are like "fuck y'all, fix your own shithole, and hey thanks for that whole Isaaq genocide thing, really enjoyed that What genocide?, who has been feeding you this? I know that you get a kick out of discussing Somali politics, but seriously sis you need to brush up on your knowledge with regards to the last days of Barre's rule, instead of blasting us with your schadenfreude and acting like the self-styled defender of the 'North' when large swathes of that Northern region don't need anyone to defend them. The perpetrators of those crimes in the Northwest were most definitely not 'Southerner', indeed as i pointed out earlier the major violator in charge was the NSS agent Riyaale Kaahin the current president of Somaliland. Those you dubbed Southerners had suffered just as much, and not to forget the reprisals against the population of modern Puntland, so nobody has a 'monopoly' on Barre's actions.

[mr.videomen]

What genocide?, who has been feeding you this? I know that you get a kick out of discussing Somali politics, but seriously sis you need to brush up on your knowledge with regards to the last days of Barre's rule, instead of blasting us with your schadenfreude and acting like the self-styled defender of the 'North' when large swathes of that Northern region don't need anyone to defend them. The perpetrators of those crimes in the Northwest were most definitely not 'Southerner', indeed as i pointed out earlier the major violator in charge was the NSS agent Riyaale Kaahin the current president of Somaliland. Those you dubbed Southerners had suffered just as much, and not to forget the reprisals against the population of modern Puntland, so nobody has a 'monopoly' on Barre's actions.

Do NOT ask me what genocide. Do not.
It is your opinion that "everyone suffered equally" from Barre's rule, but that is just your opinion.
Everyone suffered EVENTUALLY [and some here more directly than others], but the difference is the path people chose after. Some said never again, some said one more time.
I am not going to pick over the semantics of what is North and what is South, that's ridiculous.

[gIWnXYkw]

Do NOT ask me what genocide. Do not.
It is your opinion that "everyone suffered equally" from Barre's rule, but that is just your opinion.
Everyone suffered EVENTUALLY [and some here more directly than others], but the difference is the path people chose after. Some said never again, some said one more time.
I am not going to pick over the semantics of what is North and what is South, that's ridiculous.

What do you mean, 'do NOT ask me what genocide'?, I have uncles and male relatives who died under Barre's dictatorship, what exactly is your horse in this matter? Many people suffered under his rule, but none of this can be termed 'genocide', and if you actually read journals and studies on this issue instead of 'fadhi ku dirir' small talk of the Somali cafes and restaurants, you'd be well aware of the invididuals behind the crackdowns and their affilations.

I had my say, not really interested in this discussing any further.