[MannoFr]

There is a book on Introduction to Vedas by Swami Dayanand Saraswathi
which gives details on the origin of Vedas and other particulars. This is
a book to be read by everyone.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[Drugmachine]

Dear all
On those days there was only one guru who taught everything. and the king offered money to guru to teach his student they lived in hut and need nothing except food and cloth. But to day teachers are meeting students and there are 1000 gurus who teach him. Now tell me who is guru?
Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru. The education started at 7 and concluded at 18, after which sishya will enter married life and at 21 he will enter in discussions and arrive a result. No creed for money. But to day?

[PhillipHer]

Folks,

Dear all
On those days there was only one guru who taught everything. and the king offered money to guru to teach his student they lived in hut and need nothing except food and cloth. But to day teachers are meeting students and there are 1000 gurus who teach him. Now tell me who is guru?
Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru. The education started at 7 and concluded at 18, after which sishya will enter married life and at 21 he will enter in discussions and arrive a result. No creed for money. But to day? This is what is education:

AchAryAth pAdham AdattE
sishya: pAdham swamEdhayA
pAdham sabrahmachAribya:
pAdham kAlakramEnacha.

Teacher gives quarter portion of the knowledge
Student, from his own intellect, learns another quarter portion
He learns another quarter portion by his interactions with his class-mates
The rest of the quarter portion to complete the knowledge acquisition comes in course of time (from life's experiences).

[9mm_fan]

Dear all

Guru didn't beat Sishya and sishya didn't kill guru.

Dear sir,

I would not be too sure of that cos there were certain rules and regulations for sishya's of the past that they should abide:

1)Should not fight with Guru
2)Should not kill Guru
3)Should not covet the Guru's wife.

And have you noticed this Shloka

ॐ सह नाववतु ।
सह नौ भुनक्तु ।
सह वीर्यं करवावहै ।
तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ।
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
Tejasvi Nau-Adhii-Tam-Astu Maa Vidviss-Aavahai |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:
1:Om, May God Protect us Both (the Teacher and the Student),
2: May God Nourish us Both,
3: May we Work Together with Energy and Vigour,
4: May our Study be Enlightening, not giving rise to Hostility,
5:Om, Peace, Peace, Peace. माविद्विषावहै ...Maa Vidviss-Aavahai...not giving rise to Hostility,


For all these rules and also a prayer for preventing hostility between Guru and Shisya that means such offences have happened in the past.

To have laws that means offences would have occurred in the past and the wise laid down rules to prevent such offences in the future.

[Ifroham4]

Lord Dakshinamurthy is the Guru for all of us. We have to think of him before starting anything.
In fact Lord Shiva is another Teacher to us. If we go by tradition, there are many things to look at.
Adi Shankara is a Traditional Guru besides Veda Vyas, Parasara, Sukadeva etc. There are many
Patasalas, there is one such in Tambaram, conducted very well. It is rather a difficult task to coach
students with meticulous system of recitation for correct pronunciation of Vedic humns and mantras.
Guru has to be a role model with adequate knowledge in Vedas. It may not be possible to have
similar Guru-Sikshya system, these days. Because many brahmins boys are not coming forward to
learn Vedas voluntarily, except a few. Jeevanam becomes the main trump card. In fact, I am finding
difficult to find a girl to my friend's son, who is a Gurukkal in a Siva Temple. The Girl's family is asking
me about the Guarantee of the Income and the future of the boy, though the boy has studied upto
Higher Secondary. A Sikshya has to have certain codes viz. undivided attention, commitment, discipline,
etc. besides devotion to the Guru and over all the main thing is desire to learn. Hindu Dharma is an
ocean and the Brahmin Community boys are not coming forward to learn Vedas as a main source of
income. People may casually talk, that Sastrigals are earning good sum. Because they have done good
amount of hard work, they are able to. All these aspects have to be kept in mind. If I have hurt the
feelings of anyone, I may be excused for quoting the above points.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[Big A]

Both the parts of Vedas demonstration by Mani Mama(as one prohit called him) is amazing. First, why not Sringeri Mutt organize something so that from 'living' 73 years old son in Rajasthan, the two ancient mantras are recorded and kept live. I fervently appeal to Sringeri Mutt to do this for posterity. Second, the Lecturer says without understanding the meaning we should not recite anything. well, I recite every day some slogas, certainly, without understanding the meaning. Why, who understands even sandhyavandanam we do daily three times a day. I am confused. I mean meaning of every word but ofcourse many people including myself understand the overall meaning.

[NeroASERCH]

Both the parts of Vedas demonstration by Mani Mama(as one prohit called him) is amazing. First, why not Sringeri Mutt organize something so that from 'living' 73 years old son in Rajasthan, the two ancient mantras are recorded and kept live. I fervently appeal to Sringeri Mutt to do this for posterity. Second, the Lecturer says without understanding the meaning we should not recite anything. well, I recite every day some slogas, certainly, without understanding the meaning. Why, who understands even sandhyavandanam we do daily three times a day. I am confused. I mean meaning of every word but ofcourse many people including myself understand the overall meaning.

There many books available in the Leading Book Shops giving Bhasyam for many Slokas/Stothras including
for Sandhya Vandhanam. One can take the help of them.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[LottiFurmann]

In today's world tell me how many Brahmins themselves take the study of Vedas seriously?
So I feel any deserving candidate should learn it so that Vedic Tradition remains.

The religious practices is still followed in India. Of late, people have started getting
fear amongst themselves, owing to certain ups and downs in their families, and
visit temples frequently and do pariharams, etc based on astrologer's advices,
though people in general have not shown much interest in learning Vedism with full
devotion. People engage purhoits for doing homam, etc towards prosperity of
the family, wealth, acquision of wealth, children (where there is no issue in the house)
and general well-being on account of Nava-graha Peyarchis.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Some people follow the practices of Homam, etc even today besides the following:

Giving Dana
Visit Family Deity regularly because of unshakeable faith
Nithya Pooja at home
Listening to Pravachan or Discourse
Show keen interest for knowledge of Vedism and develop
spiritual will to do religious acts
Sacred acts like observing Vrata
Recitation of Japa Mantras
Invite Sumangali Ladies and offer Food after performing
Suhasani Pooja
Calling Vedic People to the house to chant Vishnu Sahasranamam
once in a year

[Slonopotam845]

The Creator of Life and Vedas. Brahma received Vedas from OM.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[Slonopotam845]

In fact the verse "Sahanaavavathu" is the result of a quarrel (Hostility)between sri.Yagjnavalkya (student) and his Teacher sri.Vaisampayana

Reference:-WIKIPEDIA
Yājñavalkya (Devanagari: याज्ञवल्क्य) of Mithila was a legendary sage of Vedic India,[1] credited with the authorship of the Shatapatha Brahmana (including the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad), besides the Yoga Yajnavalkya and the Yājñavalkya Smṛti.[1] He is also a major figure in the Upanishads.
According to tradition, Yājñavalkya was the son of Devarāta and was the pupil of sage Vaiśampāyana.[1] Once, Vaiśampāyana got angry with Yājñavalkya as the latter argued too much to separate some latter additions to Yajurveda in being abler than other students. The angry teacher asked his pupil Yājñavalkya to give back all the knowledge of Yajurveda that he had taught him.[1]
As per the demands of his Guru, Yājñavalkya vomited all the knowledge that he acquired from his teacher in form of digested food. Other disciples of Vaiśampāyana took the form of partridge birds and consumed the digested knowledge (a metaphor for knowledge in its simplified form without the complexities of the whole but the simplicity of parts) because it was knowledge and they were very eager to receive the same.[1]
The Saṃskṛt name for partridge is "Tittiri". As the Tittiri (partridge) birds ate this Veda, it is thenceforth called the Taittirīya Yajurveda. It is also known as Kṛṣṇa Yajurveda or Black-Yajurveda on account of it being a vomited substance. The Taittirīya Saṃhitā thus belongs to this Yajurveda.[2]
Then Yājñavalkya determined not to have any human guru thereafter. Thus he began to propitiate the Sun God, Surya. Yājñavalkya worshipped and extolled the Sun, the master of the Vedas, for the purpose of acquiring the fresh Vedic portions not known to his preceptor, Vaiśampāyana.[3]
The Sun God, pleased with Yājñavalkya penance, assumed the form of a horse and graced the sage with such fresh portions of the Yajurveda as were not known to any other. This portion of the Yajurveda goes by the name of Śukla Yajurveda or White-Yajurveda on account of it being revealed by Sun.

[PhillipHer]

Rishi sri.Yaagjna Vakya is famous in many ways.Once in the Royal court of Emperor Janaka of Mithila,Kumari.Gargi Vaachanakavi (daughter of the Rishi Garga) challenged sri.Yagjnavalkya for a "Religious discussion".She said :-"Like 3 arrows from a bow at one time,I am asking you straight away 3 questions"---Kumari Gaargi is an Arshini (to whom Vedha was "revealed) and a Bahma Vaadhini(Not married,but dedicated life to religious work) (Ref;-1)---"Gargasya Putri Gaargi"

Sri.Gaargi was also an Authrity in Abtruse "Poorva Meemaamsam"(Ref;-1)

Only in Hindu Religion VEDHAM has been "Revealed" to WOMEN (Arshinis) and there are 42 such Arshinis.Sri.Vaagambruni is one such "Famous" Arshini..

Sri.Sulabha Maitreyi (anther Arshini,but "Saadhya Vathu"=married and dedicated to religious work) wife of sri.Yaagjnavalkya was the 'Cheer leader" for sri.GARGI,against her husband.

ref-1;- "Position of women in Hindu Civilisation"--Book--Sri.Anatha Sadhasiv Altekar--Publisher-Motilal Banarasidas--delhi--1959--reprint--1987.

[HedgeYourBets]

Hi All
Very interesting discussion. I can sincerely say that Vedic learning is not restricted to only brahmins. There are lots of people in the modern age mis-understand the word brahmin. The one who had the upanayana samskara and wear the sacred thread is not a brahmin. He is the one who should possess these qualities (I have tried to list a few)
1) Learn the essence of vedas and upanishads ( here the person should be knowing the bhasyam of vedas)
2) Should be well verse in doing pooja for the benefit of others. (nowadays these poojas and samskaras are commercialized)
3) Should do yajna for the public cause
4) Should not see partiality in human beings

Only a person with all these qualities can call himself as brahmin. My guruji always used to say, a Brahmin is a one who realises that he and Brahman are not different they are one. So in the vedic era they categorized the people who are well versed in vedas and mantra shastras as brahmins. So that for the benefit of people these brahmins can do yajna or pooja on behalf of the yajamana. So it is not restricted to brahmins, the one who really needs to study the Vedas they can learn from the learned guru.

Om Namah Shivayah
Thanks
C.R.Bala

[Drugmachine]

Vedic learning restricted to brahmins only - true or false?- is the question.


The answer is:

1. There is enough evidence to prove that vedic learning was open to every one in the society-this included brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vyshyas, Sudras, Panchamans and even those who did not know their caste/gothra.

2. There is enough evidence to prove that Vedic learning was open to ladies.

All that we hear contrary to these two well proved facts are hyperbole, politics and hypocritical manipulation.

Cheers.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Sidhdham satsamprdhAyE sthira dhiyamanagam shrOthriyam brahma nishtam
sathvastam sathya vAcham samaya niyathayA sAdhu vruthyA samEtham
dambAsUyAthi muktham jitha vishaya ganam dheerga bandhum dhayAlum
skAlithyE cAsithAram sva para hithaparam desikam bhUshnurIpsEth. (Swami Desikan)

A good teacher's qualities:

1. He should be a learned person from the lineage of great acharya parampara.
2. He should have clear mind and intellect not wavering.
3. He should have studied the vedas and should have his mind set in the brahman which is the subject of the vedas.
4. He should be sAtvic in nature.
5. He should be a satyavadin.
6. He should be disciplined in tune with the times.
7. He should not be conceited nor should he be envious.
8. He should have control of his indriyas.
9. He should behave as a helping kin.
10.He should be kind hearted.
11.He should be quick to point out deficiencies.
12.He should be mindful of what is good for others and himself.

A sishya (student) should choose such an Acharya.

[Lt_Apple]

Sidhdham satsamprdhAyE sthira dhiyamanagam shrOthriyam brahma nishtam
sathvastam sathya vAcham samaya niyathayA sAdhu vruthyA samEtham
dambAsUyAthi muktham jitha vishaya ganam dheerga bandhum dhayAlum
skAlithyE cAsithAram sva para hithaparam desikam bhUshnurIpsEth. (Swami Desikan)

A good teacher's qualities:

1. He should be a learned person from the lineage of great acharya parampara.
2. He should have clear mind and intellect not wavering.
3. He should have studied the vedas and should have his mind set in the brahman which is the subject of the vedas.
4. He should be sAtvic in nature.
5. He should be a satyavadin.
6. He should be disciplined in tune with the times.
7. He should not be conceited nor should he be envious.
8. He should have control of his indriyas.
9. He should behave as a helping kin.
10.He should be kind hearted.
11.He should be quick to point out deficiencies.
12.He should be mindful of what is good for others and himself.

A sishya (student) should choose such an Acharya.

What a co incidence!! I was just reading the June issue of Sambhashana Sandesha Sanskrit magazine and the same is listed there in an article titled

आचार्यः अध्यापकः उपाध्यायः च

[doctorzlo]

Rightly said, sir. We are ready to accept two hundred years of glib talk and believe whatever is said by the west and ignore our timeless treasures.

Recitation of vedas and learning of vedas are entirely different things. Many nayanmars, azhwars, of gurus and commoners of all varnas learnt vedas and preached the contents of vedas to all audiences. I also gave a reference from jeyamohan. In his essay he says people of all varnas learnt relevant portions of veda mantras for regular use in their professions.

Vedic learning restricted to brahmins only - true or false?- is the question.


The answer is:

1. There is enough evidence to prove that vedic learning was open to every one in the society-this included brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vyshyas, Sudras, Panchamans and even those who did not know their caste/gothra.

2. There is enough evidence to prove that Vedic learning was open to ladies.

All that we hear contrary to these two well proved facts are hyperbole, politics and hypocritical manipulation.

Cheers.

[Slonopotam845]

I find Swami Dayanand Saraswathi Lectures give us lot of inputs and produces
a spirit in us to learn Vedic Dharma. If a person who desires to attain peace
has to have some true knowledge about his existence, which can only be obtained
through study of our Hindu Vedic principles. One cannot get spirituality without seeking
the basic knowledge concepts in spirituality. One has to start studying with the help
of knowledgeable people and slowly and steadily understand Vedic explanations of
Upanishads. Once a person starts reading it regularly, a sort of Atma Shakthi will
develop. In fact, one can notice in some Lord Shiva Temples, chanting Sanskrit
Slokas, Rudram, Chamakam, etc daily in the evening, though not knowing Sanskrit.
It generates some energy towards self-development. To develop or enhance Vedic
Knowledge about Vedic Dharma, one has to have a Good Guru to teach properly
without akshara or pronounciation flaws.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

[radikal]

I know that the so self styled rationalist have left the forum.
We all can be happy, and hide our differences, and sweep it under the carpet. But unfortunately ignorance is not a bliss.
There was Caste discrimination, and there is even today caste discrimination (or reverse caste discrimination).


Criticism of Manusmriti


Needless to say, the Manusmriti has been criticised and condemned. Manusmriti's detractors feel that some of its injunctions favor one community (the Brahmins) over others. It is also accused of trying to imply that the Shudras as races foreign to India. Almost all of its injunctions pertaining to the Shudras are seen as tools for their exploitation. While it is sometimes claimed (with almost no evidence) that certain passages of Manusmriti which are highly biased against Shudras are later additions or interpolations, it must be noted that atleast some of the statements in the Manusmriti against Shudras were already present by the time of Shankaracharya (7th-8th Century CE), who quotes them in some of his commentaries. So it is unlikely that these so-called interpolations, if there were any, were done much later than the writing of the text itself.


Here are some selections:


I – 91. "One occupation only the Lord prescribed to the shudra - to serve meekly even these other three castes."
I – 93. "As the Brahmana sprang from (Prajapati’s i.e. God’s) mouth, as he was first-born, and as he possesses the veda, he is by right the lord of this whole creation."
II – 31. "Let (the first part of ) a brahmin’s (denote) something auspicious, a kshatriya’s name be connected with power and a vaishya’s with wealth, but a Shudra’s (express something) contemptible."
II – 100. "Whatever exists in the world is the property of the Brahmana; on account of the excellence of his origin the Brahmana is indeed, entitled to it all."
VIII – 37. "When a learned Brahmin has found treasure, deposited in former (times), he may take even the whole (of it); for he is the master of everything."
VIII – 270. "A shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
VIII – 271. "If he mentions names and castes of the (twice born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers, shall be thrust red hot into his mouth."
IX – 189. "The property of a Brahmana must never be taken by the king, that is a settled rule; but (the property of men) of other castes the king may take on failure of all (heirs)."
IX – 317. "A Brahmin, whether learned or ignorant, is a powerful divinity."
X – 129. "No collection of wealth must be made by a shudra even though he be able to do it; for a shudra who has acquired wealth gives pain to Brahmana."
XI – 261-62. "A Brahmana who has killed even the peoples of the three worlds, is completely freed from all sins on reciting three times the Rig, Yajur or Sama- Veda with the Upanishad."
XII. 4. "If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces."
The Manusmriti is also condemned as highly anti-feminist.



IX – 3 . "Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence."
IX – 18. "Women have no business with the text of the veda."
IX - 17. "(When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct."

Hinduism / manusmriti

[Fegasderty]

Frankly speaking logic answers everything.If God has given us humans a mind to think that means knowledge and noble thoughts should fill it up.



After all the Vedas does say:

Ano Bhadraaha Kritao Yantu Vishvataha."
" Let noble thoughts come to us from all directions"