[Beerinkol]

Dear Renuka,

I don't believe in back up evidences supported by scriptures in my attempt to live my human life, along with fellow humans, in relationships to the fullest, with my best possible right sense, understanding and acceptance - to achieve to satisfy the self and also to lose to achieve my purest supreme self.

Every one have their way of living. Either by realizations about the life and human relationships on one's own OR by only following and adhering to scriptured quotes (that may be with complete understanding or half backed understanding of in which context and for what purpose such things were quoted)

Dear Ravi,

So in that case why should we lament if culture is not maintained abroad or anywhere in this world if scriptures need not be our back up in life and each is free to live the way they want.

So that means Paal and Phalum is more important than scriptures!!LOL
Am I right??

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Dear Sri Ravi,
Your Post #18.
I would like you to first define the term 'friends'. As you might agree, there are different levels of friendship and much of
what you describe in the post can be with your friends, however you might perhaps limit their involvement into your personal life.
For e.g., if you are a non smoker by choice and your 'friend' smokes, would you allow him to be with you when you are performing say a Pooja or a homam?

[HedgeYourBets]

Dear Renuka,

I don't believe in back up evidences supported by scriptures in my attempt to live my human life, along with fellow humans, in relationships to the fullest, with my best possible right sense, understanding and acceptance - to achieve to satisfy the self and also to lose to achieve my purest supreme self.

Every one have their way of living. Either by realizations about the life and human relationships on one's own OR by only following and adhering to scriptured quotes (that may be with complete understanding or half backed understanding of in which context and for what purpose such things were quoted)

I share here only my views. Neither to impose on others nor to claim that my views are perfect. And this would continue as long as I feel like posting my views in this Forum.

So, you need not to strain yourself to alarm me to wait...

Dear Ravi,

So in that case why should we lament if culture is not maintained abroad or anywhere in this world if scriptures need not be our back up in life and each is free to live the way they want.

So that means Paal and Phalum is more important than scriptures!!LOL
Am I right??

Dear Renuka,

NO!!!! You are not right..

Go through the same highlighted lines in my post above, that you have highlighted, to see what I am conveying..Give stress to the underlined part of it.

My observations are pertaining to human relationship in human life across the Globe. Not restricted to any specific culture. You can find this same line in my previous post, addressed to Shri Naina_Marbus.

I said, to understand human psychology, value of relationships, and differences of personality, I don't relay on scriptured quotes and say that, we humans are not great in our love too, coz that only amounts to the satisfaction of the Self and all that involved in it only amounts to satisfying Supreme Self.

I, then, elaborated as on what grounds our honest love and care contradicts the "need of the self", in 4 different relationships and circumstances, having accepted the other completely. And how collectively people in relationship achieve completeness of self composition, out of love, gratitude and respect, having completely accepted each other.

That is, a true acceptance with true love makes you lose some thing or other BUT without any regrets and enables you to sustain and cherish the relationship. That is the beauty of human relationship where no humans are 100 percent perfect and 100 percent complete/composed/skilled/matured.

If human relationships (A Guy - A girl as true loves, husband-wife; parents-children etc.etc.) revolves around "Only the self to be satisfied", I bet, no one can ever have the possibilities and the desire to have relationships.

That's the reality of good human relationships, that forms, grows and sustains.

I believe, many of us tend to relate these most valuable scriptural quests irrelevantly with our basic human life and relationships. May be due to self assertion to find it relevant having self realized correct understanding OR due to half baked understanding.


We should not mix the spiritual philosophies for soul's elevation with that of human philosophies and psychologies that enables living a good human life of relationships.




It go nothing to contradict with any culture.


1) Our culture does not prohibit us from having friendship with any humans on this Earth, belonging to other faith and culture.

2) Our culture does not profess to reject individuals who are not 100 per cent perfect. No culture has this system, for the fact that, no one is 100 per cent perfect.

3) Our culture/customs/traditions makes our relationship meaningful, enjoyable and valuable and makes us to realize that - Humans are not perfect, people differ, acceptance and commitments are the essence of relationship, adjustments/compromises/sacrifices and bondage helps each other to be complete, having completely accepted each other with each others incompleteness. They drive us towards living a committed life, accepting the differences.

So, there is nothing in my statement that indicates rejection of our most valuable and cherish able culture and tradition.

Referring to certain Spiritual philosophies/concepts that are meant for liberation of the souls should be restricted only to the same purpose and not to understand how a valuable and meaningful Human Relationship can be established with love and respect to each differing individual.

We still lament if culture is not maintained abroad or even in home land BECAUSE we want these cultures/traditions/customs of our own styles to continue to exists so that the folks of our community continue to share the essence of these among themselves with sense of love and respect to our culture, fellow humans and human relationships.



Paalum Pazhamum is more important than scriptures??? LOL!!! What a irrelevant cross questioning dear Renuka!!!

Paalum Pazhamum is a cultural/traditional practice that got its own meaning and significance. I don't know if this custom has its reference in Vedic scriptures or not.

Whether cultural/traditional practices have scriptural references or not, this customs/traditions and scriptures does not makes any of them Superior or Inferior to each other.

[Lillie_Steins]

Dear Sri Ravi,
Your Post #18.
I would like you to first define the term 'friends'. As you might agree, there are different levels of friendship and much of
what you describe in the post can be with your friends, however you might perhaps limit their involvement into your personal life.
For e.g., if you are a non smoker by choice and your 'friend' smokes, would you allow him to be with you when you are performing say a Pooja or a homam?

Shri ozone,

I could not understand as why I could not quote your post alone. Thus have pasted the contents of your post #22, here.

Shri ozone,

Each individual have his / her own criteria to accept one's friendship, as per ones personal choice and preferences, as per one's own practices, tolerance etc..etc..

Like a non smoker may accept a smoker to be his good friend. He may even allow him to smoke sitting besides him or may not. But, true friendship remains mutual and both a non smoker and smoker respect each others belief, choices and preferences and act accordingly.

What I meant about such a friendship is, they continue to be good friends, loving, supporting, guiding each other etc, while respecting each others choices, belief and comfort and act accordingly.

For a more clear example, if you remember our dear member Renuka said that she have one or two male friends who do involve in extra marital affairs due their own reasons. But she still honor them and be their friends for their many more good values and friendship. Moreover would not even find sensible/good to disclose their affairs to their respective wives. So, Renuka is of that personality and many of us may be the same or varying a bit.

Whatever may be the case, once accepted some one fully with mutual respect towards each other, we tend to keep our friendship. No matter what is our personality and what is the personality of our friend.

There are many many many ....so many probabilities and differentiations that can be listed out.


To express my view in a more clear and simple form, based on OP is -

If you completely agree to marry a blind girl out of your love and respect towards her, it means, she is been completely accepted in true spirit and she is a complete women without any lapses, who would live a wholesome contented life with all your continued love, support, care and respect.

[radikal]

Paalum Pazhamum is more important than scriptures??? LOL!!! What a irrelevant cross questioning dear Renuka!!!

Come to think of it Ravi you are right!! We both have been debating this Paal Phalum on and on like the famous Goundamani Senthil Banana joke.
We seem to view things differently.
I have a feeling we are not talking on the same lines just like the joke below!!LOL

[radikal]

Dear Ravi,

You wrote:

For a more clear example, if you remember our dear member Renuka said that she have one or two male friends who do involve in extra marital affairs due their own reasons. But she still honor them and be their friends for their many more good values and friendship. Moreover would not even find sensible/good to disclose their affairs to their respective wives. So, Renuka is of that personality and many of us may be the same or varying a bit.
Are yaar..what is the relevance to the question ozone asked you?
He was asking you about a smoker and a person doing Homa.
Dear Ravi I hope you are not trying to hint that I should disclose this to my friends wife.
You see these are my reasons why I dont disclose;

1)First i dont want to be an Ethappan and betray my friend when he trusted me and told me.

2)Secondly most affairs do not mean anything to most people and no one actually intends to breaks up their homes for it.
Most people want to have the best of both worlds.So let my friend have his vegan cake and eat it both(he is pure veg)

3)Last but not the least its better not to say anything than to speak unpleasant truth.


You must have your reasons for not disclosing to your friends wife about his affairs..remember the muslim colleague you wrote about?

[Lillie_Steins]

Doc

Sorry - Westerners being "too self-centered" doesn't quite mean that only the westerners are self-centered .

Further - " Tvameva Matha Cha .............. ", to me is more of a 'surrender' than a 'prayer' wherein the Almighty
is personified and perceived as Mother, Father, Freind ........ etc etc.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

Dear Anand:
You are right on. Did you notice that the verse "TvamevaMatha Cha ..............", refers to mother, father,bandhu, sakha.. , implying a need for the self to invoke these relationships as important adjuncts?

[Slonopotam845]

Dear Ravi,

You wrote:




Are yaar..what is the relevance to the question ozone asked you?
He was asking you about a smoker and a person doing Homa.
Dear Ravi I hope you are not trying to hint that I should disclose this to my friends wife.
You see these are my reasons why I dont disclose;

1)First i dont want to be an Ethappan and betray my friend when he trusted me and told me.

2)Secondly most affairs do not mean anything to most people and no one actually intends to breaks up their homes for it.
Most people want to have the best of both worlds.So let my friend have his vegan cake and eat it both(he is pure veg)

3)Last but not the least its better not to say anything than to speak unpleasant truth.


You must have your reasons for not disclosing to your friends wife about his affairs..remember the muslim colleague you wrote about?

My dear Renuka, do you got a feeling that I was criticizing you for not disclosing things to your friend's wife??

If that's what you felt, I didn't say anything on those lines. My statements were just to the point as what you told about it. And I said, many of "us" may do the same or differ a bit. Here "us" includes me too. People who differ with "us" may do many other things to let the wives know, without getting themselves caught by their friends Or tell openly and cut off the friendship..etc..etc..etc..That's all.

My Ex Muslim colleague whom I was referring to is like your friends only. He is a gem of person. Very helping and have many fine qualities. As well he says, he loves his wife and respect her a lot.

I do have the friendship with him and I don't have to reveal such unpleasant thinks to his wife. Exactly for the same reasons you have listed out. Both husband and wife are living very happily without any disputes as well.


Dear Renuka, it has the relevance to Shri Ozone's question to me, about defining friends/friendship. I didn't realize that you would not like my reference to your friends that you have expressed before and shared with all of us here. I first explained him about the friendship between a smoker and a non smoker and then refered to your friend's case as well for a more clear example.

[Peptobismol]

This is the kind of quote to expect from Westerners (especially Americans) brainwashed into a system in which every individual tends to be highly egotic and narcissistic.

Raghy has made some sensible observations. Even Europeans will agree with Raghy.

Dear Sri. Naina, Greetings.

We as persons need someone all the time. We all are social animals. We require the society; To have a society, we need people to take part in that.

Yes, as you rightly pointed out, excess ego is the culprit all the time. I came across so many elderly people who went through divorces ( I knew a person who went through 3 divorces, all of them went through bitter fights); without a second thought burnt bridges with their children and friends.... and at the age after 75 - 80 years, day in and day out lying in their recliners wishing for visitors!

It is nice to see so many messages in this thread talking about accepting persons in complete. There may be something seriously wrong with me..... such acceptance never happened to me; I never pretended to accept someone completely either. I haven't seen that happen in my own family.

I learnt simple lessons in my life. One can never make everyone happy all the time; so, one should not expect everyone to make him/her happy all the time either. One should always be aware of others not accepting him/her completely, so that, one would always behave properly so as not to offend others. There is no point in saying " I didn't mean this... I didn't mean that..etc'; we see such conversations all the time around us. If persons are accepting others completely, why would there be such conversations?

From what I understand from my life, for any person, relationships depend upon himself/herself. He/she decides the amount of socialising they need or require and act accordingly. We may not need the same amount of socialising all the time. It goes up and down. At different stages in life we look for different amount of socialising. We do come across so many persons in life anyway; when we part, if we don't burn bridges, such relationships can be renewed as and when we need.

As long as we are ready to give unconditional love, affection and compassion to others, when we need that love, affection and compassion we get it. We may not get from the initial sources... mind you, we may not burn bridges but others may very well burn bridges! So, personally I will not take any relationship for granted; I wouln't even dream of anyone else accepting me completely.... I wouldn't be kidding myself lookig for any fairy tale stuff! But, that's my personal opinion.

Cheers!

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Yes Naina

I am glad Renuka, you and I see eye-to-eye on this issue. There is also another verse starts with:

Pitassi Lokaysa, Charaacharaysya - Thou art the Father of the world and all that moves and static.....

And ends with:

Piteva putraysa, Sakheva sakhyuhu, Priya Priyayaar hasi deva sodum. - Bear with me as father with a son,
friend with a friend and as lover with his beloved.

Naina your observation "the need for the self to invoke these relationships" is absolutely "spot-on". Kudos.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[S.T.D.]

Dear Renuka

ACTION REPLAY - TB COMEDY SERIAL.

We will give you Senthil's role and C.Ravi, Koundamani's. Onlookers -
Raghy - seated in the centre
Ozone & HH Siva - standing
Myself - seated, in the background.

Script : The banana joke - (your sparring).
Sounds interesting - after Laurel & Hardy, Mutt & Jeff, Tom & Jerry, now "Renu & Ravi"
Topic : "The Relation"
Theme :Cat & Mouse
Censor : Certified "U" rating - accused of plagiarism.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[PhillipHer]

Naina your observation "the need for the self to invoke these relationships" is absolutely "spot-on". Kudos.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

isnt it also telling us that we need not go after one person for each such relationship, but find them all in ONE?

[Big A]

Dear All

Jokes apart, I think it would do us all a world of good to study a bit of TA.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[Ifroham4]

Exactly!!!! "The need of the self" invokes relationships AND "The loss for the self" sustains the most valuable and desirable relationship.

Both leads to formation, growth and sustenance of relationships out of heartfelt mutual acceptance, unmindful of natural human flaws.

[9mm_fan]

Marhaba Rafiq [ Welcome Friend ] - sounds phonetically similar to Ravi

So you do agree on the need for a bit of study on TA ?

whew - a plantain is a fruit afterall! shukran.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[Slonopotam845]

Shri Anand Monahar,

To be frank I haven't done with a bit of study on TA...

What I have said in my post #34 is what I have been saying all these while..

I feel, the Opening Post has been complicated here and distracted with too many comprehensions. Off course, it all stimulates our brains well and facilitate exchange of views on branched out points.

We humans would have no purpose on this Earth if we are deprived with "the need of the self". So, there is nothing to remain focused and elaborate on this.

When we talk about relationships, which does not work out and sustain unless there exists mutual acceptance of the other in Toto, all I am saying is - we end up with some or other compromises, adjustments and even losing something that we would prefer to have for our self. We end up graciously accepting "the loss for the self" while evaluating the values of the other likeable individual in our life.

That's how we accept the other completely and make the other complete, despite some or the other natural human flaws of each other.

As well, we should not have a wrong perception that, though we graciously agree "the loss for the self" in a relationship, we are in fact still serving our supreme self and that the compromises and losses for the sake of the other are flawed. And that there is no greater surrender with dedication other than to the God. We need to value the other human in our most revered relationship of samsaaram (though you don't find the other equally dedicated towards you), fulfill our role with reasonable selflessness, that would amount to serving the Purest Supreme Self that is dedicated to God and Spirituality.

I would define "the loss for the self" in a relationship as "The Purest Supreme Self" where you lose to keep yourself in tact, fulfilling your duties, responsibilities, moralities, trust worthiness, care and protection and consideration towards the other, in your most valuable relationship.

For the two individuals in the relationship, to have the sense of being completely facilitated with each one's role and living each one's complete life, each of them should be completely accepted by the other, unmindful of each individual's unique flaws as Human.

I give the significance of quote in the OP most importantly to that of human relationships that leads to the formation, growth and sustenance of family relationships. And agree with the beauty of relations, that facilitates each other to be complete, having completely accepted each other, the way each other are.

[9mm_fan]

Dear Renuka

ACTION REPLAY - TB COMEDY SERIAL.

We will give you Senthil's role and C.Ravi, Koundamani's. Onlookers -
Raghy - seated in the centre
Ozone & HH Siva - standing
Myself - seated, in the background.

Script : The banana joke - (your sparring).
Sounds interesting - after Laurel & Hardy, Mutt & Jeff, Tom & Jerry, now "Renu & Ravi"
Topic : "The Relation"
Theme :Cat & Mouse
Censor : Certified "U" rating - accused of plagiarism.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

That will be great Ok cos I feel that sometimes when Ravi and I debate its like that banana joke situation only.!!LOL

[Lillie_Steins]

Dear Raviji

TA is no big deal. Just a high-sounding jargon! The interaction between any two/more individuals is
termed a transaction. Most, [if not all] of what you have being saying is all described in TA and you
have been saying them without sounding "High & Mighty". It appears that you are already putting into
practice the various principles described. Something that came to you naturally.

I am no expert/master of TA but suggest that you read TA, just to re-confirm to yourself what
a great practitioner of you already are. It's not one of those " Become a Millionaire Overnight " /
"Secret to Instant Success" / " Rule the World with your Personality " stuff.

I can give you a 'start-up', but feel you can place things in perspective, because you are already there.

Yes I agree, AVVR has a habit of starting something and then ducking away, but don't quite feel
that there is too much of a digression.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

[Ifroham4]

Dear All

Jokes apart, I think it would do us all a world of good to study a bit of TA.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

Dear Sri. Anand, Greetings.

What is the expansion of TA, please? Thanks.

Cheers!

[PhillipHer]

isnt it also telling us that we need not go after one person for each such relationship, but find them all in ONE?

Maybe. Find them all in ONE? Only very few could do that – like Meerabai, Saint Thyagaraja, Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.